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Sarah: It’s no secret that in 2023 we live in a digital-first world. Digital technology has made our lives easier and more connected, and in the food system, it offers abundant opportunities for resilience, adaptability and collaboration, while posing integration challenges. Its rapid proliferation has created complexity around how producers, suppliers, manufacturers, retailers and others will create value in a more connected food system, forcing companies and brands to address existing and future disruptions both up and down the value chain, as well as challenging their operating models to ensure they have the right capabilities, data infrastructure and partnerships to realize new growth opportunities. Avery Dennison is a global leader in designing and manufacturing labeling and functional materials whose solutions enable food companies to connect physical products to the digital world, connecting meaningful insights to actionable decisions across the food supply chain and in areas such as inventory, labor operations, food safety, traceability, food waste and sustainability. EY is a global consulting and assurance firm building a better working world by transforming businesses through the power of people, technology and innovation. Today, we’ll speak to Avery Dennison’s Vice President of Global Food, Adam Anderson, alongside Ernst and Young’s Innovation and Business Transformation Leader, Steve Basili, to discuss the impact of a more connected system on food producers, suppliers and retailers, and how digital collaboration and disruption are reshaping how food is produced and delivered in a reimagined food system. So let’s start by discussing the state of connectivity across the food value chain. Adam, we’ll start with you. What does connectivity currently look like in day-to-day business transactions, and where do you think things will be moving?

Adam: Thank you, Sarah. So the food supply chain is complex, highly matrixed and global. Now the first mile represents important predictors of food, freshness and quality, yet, with some exceptions, it’s really labor intensive and analog in nature. Now at the producer level, we see this wide range of digital adoption. So we see state-of-the-art, vertical farming emerge, and then, we’ve also got 40-, 50-year-old production facilities running on original equipment. And then as stores have become online fulfillment centers, we’ve experienced tremendous investment in order fulfillment technology. However, traditional business decisions are based on what’s typically fairly inaccurate data. One of the challenges in the food industry is the relatively narrow margins in comparison to, say, general retail or apparel. And some food is frequently referred to as, as a petty profit business. That said, you know, the food business is one that’s based on trust, and consumer expectations have moved beyond simply where can I find the lowest price but now include freshness and sustainability. And really to meet those expectations requires connectivity across the value chain. But there are some significant challenges associated with creating that connectivity.

Sarah: You described a bit of a world where we have some quite modern technologies and capabilities and connectivity and other not. Do you think we’ll continue to live in that two-part or two-speed economy, or everything will move toward more connectivity, and maybe why or why not getting into some of those challenges?

Adam: The market’s going to evolve, and where we can see value created in that connectivity, we’ll see faster adoption; simultaneously, the farther up the value chain we see adoption, the greater value that’s going to be created. There is going to be a productivity loop that’s created.

Sarah: Steve, what are your thoughts? What are some of the challenges you’re seeing as we think about moving toward a more connected system?

Steve: There are a number of different challenges. Right now, we have a value chain that is really very loosely held together. We’ve got very disparate data sets, we’ve got different degrees of maturity in terms of technological capability depending upon where you sit in the value chain. So I think part of the challenge is what is the right degree of connectivity? What kind of connectivity is necessary at what point in the value chain, in order to create the total ecosystem value that we’re looking at? Part of the challenges are getting the various players to think beyond their four walls and really think holistically. Because when we think about connectivity across the value chain, we have to think not only about ourselves, but we have to think about the other.

Sarah: You mentioned capability there. I’m curious to hear more about that. What are some of the aspects of capability that you think we need to develop? Is it truly the technical skills to use these technologies? Or are there other aspects of capability that we need to consider?

Steve: So I think there are quite a range of capabilities that we have to think through, to take into account. Let’s start back where I was talking about the ecosystem, right? When we think about the food system, we need to remove ourselves from thinking about a linear system and think more of like a three-dimensional ecosystem and the connectivity of the ecosystem. In order for us to optimize what we’re going to do in that ecosystem, “us” meaning a particular company, we need to think about how that whole ecosystem can be optimized. So there certainly is a technology aspect to it in terms of data formats and digital capabilities and analytics and so on. But then there are also a great deal of organizational capabilities. This is a new way of working for many companies, so we have to think about our talent. Do we have the right kind of talent, and how are we managing that talent? How are we actually interfacing and relating with our ecosystem partners, right? Instead of it being a transactional relationship, now it’s going to necessarily become a bit more of a partnership because we have to share that data. So what is the structure of those relationships? And then when we think about things such as this pace of innovation and change that’s going on, these are early days, and so there’s going to be a lot more changes coming down the road than we can see right now. So the ability to innovate and to stay agile and adapt to the changes happening in the marketplace within the ecosystem is going to be paramount as well. So I think there are a number of capabilities and challenges that companies are going to be grappling with in the coming years.

Sarah: Another one that comes to mind is maybe around mindset and the pressures of sort of short-term investments vs. long-term value. Adam, is that something that you’re seeing in another dimension of capability as we move toward more connected systems?

Adam: So it’s important not to do traceability just for the sake of traceability. Traceability is an outcome of leveraging this digitization to inform business decisions. Digitization enables a productivity loop with each stop along the value chain and then also across the value chain. You know, for example, when we think of from a store perspective. Business decisions and processes are influenced by inventory accuracy at the store, production, in-store replenishment, expiry management, workforce planning. With increased inventory accuracy, stores experience increased inventory turns, making stores easier to run on a day-to-day basis, providing consumers with fresher products, and then store employees are able to focus on value-added services. From a producer standpoint, they’re making business decisions all the way up to the first mile that are based on inaccurate data from the retailer. Now, as a result, producers are making decisions to either overproduce, creating inventory buffers that could result in waste and will likely dwell in the supply chain, resulting, you know, in reduced freshness to the consumer. Or they’re forgoing the buffer, but risk losing sales due to out of stock, which also impacts the end consumer and strains the relationship between the producer and the retailer. A digitization enables producers to more accurately procure raw materials, better utilize natural resources, plan labor and drive overall efficiencies. So the full value of digitization can really be only achieved when all those value chain partners are working together to create mutually beneficial solutions. It is a very different mindset than the traditional “What is my ROI? What will I deliver this quarter?”

Sarah: Yeah, definitely. Steve, one other aspect that I think is challenging in food value chains is different geographies, and where do these some of these initiatives start? Any comments on where we might see more connectivity across different regions or who the leaders will be in driving some of these advancements forward?

Steve: You know, when we think about different geographies and we think about the forces that might be pushing this future that we’re talking about, you can’t ignore regulatory as a major driver. If we think in terms of big regions, say there’s North America, there’s Europe, there’s Asia, and I’m just oversimplifying it, one could argue that Europe may be more in the vanguard in terms of actually pushing through a number of these connectivity types of initiatives simply because of many of the sustainability ambitions that the EU has in place. And that’s just one factor to take into account. Who’s going to be the leader? Based on much of the work that I’ve done, I’d place my bets on Europe moving before North America does, but I’m happy to be wrong too. Adam, I don’t know — what do you think?

Adam: From a regulatory perspective, absolutely, it feels like Europe will be leading the way; but the food supply chain is complex. Over the last 100 years, we’ve become global in nature, and we’re going to see it migrate quickly.

Sarah: It’s interesting you mentioned regulatory drivers and that being one of the aspects that make the EU a leader. Adam, you also mentioned the need for a value driver. So regulatory being more on the stick side, if there’s a carrot there, is there really a carrot around that sustainability? Is that what we could also expect to see as that regulation comes in, that there are business cases evolving for whether it’s traceability or other aspects of connectivity?

Adam: Yeah, I really do. So we’re seeing where connectivity can really transform fresh fruit operations. And as we look across the value chain, probably the retailers are the farthest along in the digitalization journey. And as that occurs, as the retailers digitize, each step of the value chain will potentially benefit and create efficiencies. You know, that value creation is dependent on data standardization, interoperability, that creates visibility across that supply chain, and that’s where regulatory initiatives are going to help to create that standardization that allows the market to achieve that value.

Sarah: Steve, you mentioned ecosystems before. Is that what we mean by ecosystems, that when we do have standards within value chains or within regions, that will mean we form an ecosystem there, because the data is interoperable and systems can communicate and that forms an ecosystem, or if not, maybe explain what you mean by ecosystems?

Steve: Yes, and. It encompasses what you just described. Let me raise a hypothetical here to try and illustrate this. Right? Adam was talking just about how retailers and their needs may drive changes in the food system. And if you take it even further, we are in a consumer-driven economy, and it’s going to continue to be so. And consumer expectations continue to evolve. When we peer into the future and we think about the kinds of demands and expectations that are coming, things such as personalized medicine are coming down the path. So when we think about personalized medicine and what that means, now we’re talking about food companies working with health care companies, working with technology companies, to provide different types of value propositions, whether it’s, you know, on-demand health drink that’s tailored to your physiology or some other kind of offering. It is this interoperable data that is properly curated and all the various security measures that are in place. But the connectivity is such that things can happen in near real time as much as possible in order to deliver the kind of value that our consumers are starting to expect. I think the technology is a critical enabler, but at the same time, it’s also the ability of the companies to be able to plug in and out of new kinds of ecosystems based upon new value propositions being offered in the marketplace.

Sarah: That’s one version of a highly connected food system and an example there with personalized nutrition. Adam, tell me a little bit more about what you think a connected food system might look like. What’s a vision of the future that you might paint?

Adam: So future-thinking leaders are saying, you know, the broad implications of digitization and the value creation opportunities across the supply chain. You know, as we see today, the early adoption will be at the store level, but rapidly move upstream. And, you know, vertical farming is a fantastic example where we’re seeing acceleration of the time from farm to fork, but also significant productivity gains through technology and digitization can have that significant impact on, you know, traditional models as well. You know, being able to identify and reduce dwell time within our existing supply chain can dramatically reduce food waste. I think you’re going to see this migration up from retailer back to farm. And as that occurs, as Steve talked about, the interoperability, the standardization is going to have to come along with that.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s a really exciting feature to paint with these new technologies and more connected systems and these valuable use cases. I imagine there are some challenges or tensions in getting there as we make some of these transitions. Steve, what do you think the transition might look like? Will there be some bumps in the road?

Steve: Without a doubt. We all like to paint that picture of utopia. We’re going to have a completely transparent and visible value chain from seed to table and know exactly where our food came from and all of that. And some version of that might be coming down the road. But I think getting there, it’s going to be bits and pieces for a variety of reasons. Number one, because of the kinds of challenges we talked about earlier in terms of companies being at different maturity levels, let alone culturally, and the way in which the whole value chain has been set up for hundreds of years. Then we also have this idea of who’s going to pay for it, how are we going to pay for this, right? And where is the value to be captured? So in the short term, in the more immediate term, when our metrics are still based on, you know, quarterly numbers and profitability and so on, at an individual company level, we have to think about is there either a new monetization angle and or are there efficiencies to be gained? And I think those are going to be the starting points for getting us toward that utopian future. I think a critical driver for us to be able to get to that utopian end state is rethinking how we measure value. If we continue to measure value at the individual company level, it’s going to be hard to get there. But if we start to think about how we derive long-term value by making the whole system work better and start to incentivize and reward based on that, that’s where I think we’re going to see the big leaps into those kind of idealistic futures that we all would love to see happen.

Sarah: That seems like quite a big potential shift. I want to make sure I understand that. Is that moving from individual companies defining the value that they gain on their bottom lines to a metric that spans across a value chain? Or talk a little bit about what that value metric might end up looking like.

Steve: Sure. If we really think at the macro level, and I’ll give an example, EY, we’ve been a leader in something that’s called the Embankment Project for Inclusive Capitalism, and it’s a coalition of leading asset owners, asset managers and companies with over $30 trillion in assets under management to rethink this question: How do we measure value and how can we shift to one that’s based on long-term value across a wider group of stakeholders? So we’re talking about employees, consumers, suppliers, communities, governments, investors and shareholders. And so while this isn’t something that is going to change Wall Street overnight, there are a lot of global leaders saying, you know what, the way we currently measure value is not a sustainable model for the demands of what the world’s capitalism needs to be moving forward. So I think that taking that kind of a broader view is important. And that’s where I think the regulatory piece is not just about sticks, but also it’s about helping to realign incentives to make the system work better.

Sarah: Adam, any comments on that?

Adam: As Steve mentioned, you know, the power of data in the CPG industry, we’ve witnessed that data-driven decision-making can change the industry, and data monetization has become a valuable revenue generator and profit stream. And currently if you look across the industry, everyone’s highly protective of their data. However, when it comes to fresh food and freshness for the end consumer, the pie gets bigger as data is shared. And that’s a pretty unique way to think about things vs. the siloed activities that we see today from a unique lens on the consumer to looking at long-term impact to our environment and food waste. All of those helping to drive behaviors across the ecosystem will be required to really drive change.

Sarah: And what other sorts of changes do companies have to start making to their businesses to stay relevant as the system becomes more connected? Steve, I’ll start with you.

Steve: The kinds of changes that they’ll have to make I was starting to allude to it earlier. I think they’re going to have to set up their operating models in a new way, and they’ve got to rethink how they set up their operating models. The pithy way of thinking about it is how do we optimize for the ecosystem? Traditionally, a company would establish a strategy and then think through, okay, what is the operating model to execute on that strategy? And that’s fine. That’s not going to go away. But what they have to do now is actually think about not just the operating model within their four walls but what role they’re going to play in an ecosystem that’s going to look different tomorrow than it does today. Setting up that operating model for that kind of connectivity, that kind of agility, certainly there’s going to have to be new types of governance around whether it’s operational governance, data governance and in the way in which they interface with their partners is going to have to change as well. So it’s a significant change. Again, I’m talking like the big-picture, longer-term stuff. There are pieces that we see where that’s happening already and in pieces where companies are doing co-innovation with their ecosystem partners and certainly tightening up their supply chains and developing data-sharing protocols so that they can start to develop better demand sensing and autonomous planning. So we’re already starting to see movement in that direction. And again, it’s technology enabled, but the technology alone is not the answer. I think there’s going to be process changes, capability changes and operating model changes as well.

Sarah: Adam, what sorts of changes do you see being necessary?

Adam: Yeah, fully agree. Everything from how organizations work, both internally. I grew up on the, the retail side of the business and each part of that business, whether it was distribution center operations, transportation, merchant store operations were optimizing within their silo and then, you know, as we look at the producers and all the way up the value chain, each has different incentives, you know, we’ve got to align with what those incentives look like and then from a technology perspective, you know, being able to, you know, leverage that data across and to get the full value of it is going to require systemic change.

Sarah: What other industries have you seen go through kind of data-sharing transformations and anything the food industry can learn from their experiences?

Adam: Yeah, there have been a number of industries that have evolved in terms of data sharing and the way various players in the ecosystem work together. It’s happened in technology, it’s happened in financial services, it’s happened in apparel and where we see companies working with their ecosystem partners to rethink the entire supply and distribution chain. The biggest lessons to be learned are both internal, in terms of breaking down the internal silos, you know, so you don’t have marketing doing one thing; and sales doing something else; and services; and support; and then you have product development. Everybody’s isolated and incented based upon their silo. That has to change. And we’ve seen technology companies lead the way in terms of starting to break down and work, operate, across those silos. If you do that, that enables you to actually work more effectively with your ecosystem partners. And that’s going to be one of those things that is going to be an evolution in terms of organizations and how they can actually extract the most value that the technology is enabling.

Sarah: One of the other shifts that we’re seeing is in the past, it was easy to use humans to solve problems. And now we’re seeing the rise of technology, but also challenges around labor availability, labor costs — is that another dynamic, Steve, that you’re seeing play out in terms of the evolution of connectivity?

Steve: Absolutely. When we think about the right kind of talent that’s necessary, there’s a shortage of the technologically savvy talent that every company is clamoring for. And so you think about the human talent and you think about the advances in AI and in robotics. And what we’re looking at is really a quantum shift in the design of work and the future of work and how human and machine will actually work together to drive value. And I think that’s going to be necessary when it becomes harder and harder for companies, especially when you think about upstream companies, it’s going to be harder for them to kind of access the type of talent that might be necessary for them to operate in this connected world.

Sarah: And speaking of different technologies, whether it’s AI or automation, how are these technologies impacting the food system and what tools should businesses be considering or maybe not be considering? Adam, we’ll start with you.

Adam: The pace of innovation across industries has just been fascinating to watch. And you described earlier the food industry typically has relatively narrow profit margins, and the food value chain should not have to shoulder the entire costs of connectivity innovation. And much of the groundbreaking technology we see in other industries will trickle down to the food industries. Also as we think about speed as essential. So we shouldn’t be reinventing proven technologies from other industries. During the pandemic, as we mentioned, we witnessed the importance of not only tracking vaccines but understanding that vaccines remain within temperature tolerances. And in the apparel industry, we’ve seen technologies for authentication of products to mitigate sales of counterfeit products. And the CPG industry made significant progress in converting data into actionable insights and personalization to grow shopper loyalty. Automotive industry, when you think about robotics and similar technologies. So, you know, as the industry digitizes, we have to convert all of that data into actual insights that are easily executed against. And there’s going to be some work to connect that data with execution platforms. If we think about demand planning, workforce management. So it’s not just about what is that new technology, but also how do we leverage all of this new data that’s going to be generated with that technology?

Sarah: Steve, what other considerations do you think businesses need to be thinking about as these new technologies come online?

Steve: I echo everything Adam said. And for me it raises a question of what does the business actually need to have and manage internally vs. outsource? We’re talking about a lot of capabilities. If we think about the way an ecosystem can structure and the data sharing and everything that we’ve been talking about, what kind of a platform is going to be necessary to manage that and to adapt to changes in the market? And if every company tries to build their own technology platform to be able to do that, I think that we’re going to still encounter the same kinds of problems that we’ve seen in the past. And so what I envision happening is there will be third-party platforms out there that help connect different players to an ecosystem. And so that’s probably going to be the most efficient way to do it. So the big question I think a lot of companies will be grappling with is how far they need to go themselves vs. what can they outsource?

Sarah: And do you see that being another capability that needs to be developed in terms of, you know, trialing new products or testing or piloting or building their own capabilities? Is that a journey that these companies are going on as well as they seek to answer that question?

Steve: Absolutely. Yes, it is. Because we’re talking about a model that’s really driven by data and digital technologies. What we’re seeing is changes that are happening at the pace that we’ve seen in the software industry. And so when you have major software companies putting new code into production every 12 seconds, it sets a pace for new product development and new offering development that is quite different than a historical model might have indicated, developing the capability to operate at that speed. But meanwhile, you know, in the food industry, we’re talking about an agricultural product. It has a growing cycle and so on. And so I think companies are going to have to be able to operate at different speeds depending upon the type of issue or the type of offering that they’re working on. And that is going to create some internal friction and challenges.

Sarah: As these businesses are thinking about value that they can both create and capture, do you see more thinking along the lines of growth opportunities or saving efficiencies or cost cutting? Steve, I’ll start with you.

Steve: I go back to it’s a “yes, and.” If we think about it, Clayton Christensen wrote The Innovator’s Dilemma 25 years ago. And I think it’s more valid and true today than it even was back then. And so, you know, his premise that, you know, market-leading companies can’t disrupt themselves or can’t innovate because they are set up to optimize for what they do. And I think that’s the challenge that a lot of companies are facing today. And I think it’s a “yes, and” approach rather than thinking of it in terms of do we go for the growth opportunities or do we try to gain efficiencies — I think it’s both. Certainly the core business is going to provide the funding for any new investments and exploratory types of models. At the same time, many of those new models, whether it’s growth opportunities, whether it’s application of technologies to create efficiency, which could support new growth opportunities, as well as help make the core business more efficient. So think of it more as a symbiotic relationship between new opportunities, meaning growth and efficiency, as well as the core business. And I think that managing that tension is going to be a real critical success driver.

Sarah: Yeah, another capability and conversation around silos and internal organizational dynamics. Adam, what are you seeing in terms of efficiencies vs. growth opportunities or both?

Adam: Very similar. I had the word “synergies” come to mind. It’s the reality that the business needs to see both; one can enable the other. So as we look at these large production facilities and we have shared data, we have more accuracy, then we do become more efficient, which allows more product to turn, which enables more throughput, more topline growth. I think you do have this environment where it is at “and” not at “or.”

Sarah: And it seems like there’s benefits that will accrue not just to individuals or individual silos but to companies and value chains — that’s one of the big points I think you’ve been making. Is that right, Steve?

Steve: Yeah, that’s correct. And in fact, I think when Adam was speaking, it made me think that if a company wants to think of it first in terms of gaining efficiencies, I think there’s a value to be created there. And that certainly can be trickled down to the bottom line. And there’s immediate value potential. At the same time, what it’s doing is it’s creating more capacity, it’s enabling more capacity for the exploratory, more growth-oriented opportunities, because if the company can do things more efficiently today, that will enable them to effectively do the synergistic, “yes, and” kind of things that we were just talking about.

Adam: And Steve, today, you know, we see the relationship between retailer and producer can almost be adversarial. So today, data is often weaponized for negotiation, allocations, fines, that audit data that typically is based on very small sample size, but it just isn’t representative of the broad state of the food supply chain. And when the entire value chain leverages digitization to drive freshness and you start getting these synergies across, as you describe that, the relationship shifts to one of a lack of trust between each other and energy spent toward who’s right, who’s wrong to one that becomes collaborative, and how do we innovate together, how do we grow the business together vs. the relationships that we frequently see today?

Steve: Adam, I think that that’s such a great point and it comes back to this idea of moving away from a transactional or adversarial kind of a relationship and realizing that both, you know, whether we’re talking about the manufacturer and the retailer or some other partnership, that both are essential pieces in making this work. And like you said, the pie can be bigger, you can reduce food waste, you can better plan your demand if you actually are working together in a more collaborative way in terms of your planning, your data sharing and what’s in your R&D cycle so that the ecosystem is ready to be there to support any individual company’s ambitions.

Sarah: When we started the conversation, Adam, you mentioned the word “trust,” and I think there’s often a conversation that technology comes at odds with trust and who owns the data and wanting to carve out more of your own space, but the conversation you guys have ended up having is one of really technology enabling more trust and more collaboration. Is that the vision for the future that you hold, Adam?

Adam: Absolutely, yeah. Today there’s so much energy that’s spent around verification, validation that now through, you know, having digitized the supply chain is not about catching someone in an audit. It is about truly having visibility of what’s happening and driving solutions to address root cause that the end consumer can win and everyone grow along the way.

Steve: Can I throw this in a slightly different direction? Because I completely agree with Adam and I worry that we’re painting a very utopian picture. I think the possibility is there, and the importance of human communication and human trust is essential. The more we’re reliant on technology and the more that data is traveling at the speed of light and the volumes of data continue to explode, the more that level of human-to-human trust is going to be essential in order for this to work. And to be frank, that’s a big and growing problem. The issues that our society has in human face-to-face interactions and grappling with the uncomfortable challenges that we face — we’re losing that ability because we’re so reliant on the technology as serving as the interface, as the intermediary, and so I think that is going to be an increased need for that human change. You know, people call it change management. I think that we can’t lose sight of the human element here. It’s not just about the technology.

Adam: You know, and I see where that value chain focuses on the end consumer and starts a dialogue around that end consumer. That is a point of where they all can agree on what the right thing to do is. Now what is the path to get there?

Sarah: When we paint this version of the future? Yes, there are challenges. It also sounds like there’s big opportunities. If I’m a business leader, you know, sitting in a boardroom somewhere, I’ve got P&L pressures, you know, how should I be thinking about taking some of these first steps and actually getting started moving in this direction? Adam.

Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Not wanting to sound naive to P&L pressures; we’ve all faced them. And however, industries since look at digitization as a packaging and procurement exercise, but as a data initiative and actionable insights, they’re going to create ongoing value for years to come.

Steve: If I can jump in, I think that’s right. And if they think about their data strategy, there is the immediate value that it can be created, but also thinking of it in terms of an investment that like, to Adam’s point, will create a long tail of value to be created. And so I think part of it is not having the same kind of short-term return expectations for certain elements of the data strategy. So they want to take a, you know, a short-, medium- and long-term view and connect the dots across all of those things, so this way they can justify the investment with some immediate return, but at the same time lay the foundation for the longer-term value, which should more than pay for itself over time.

Sarah: Fantastic. Well, Adam, Steve, thank you so much for joining me to talk about a more connected food system and how we might get there despite the challenges and hopefully unlocking some of that utopian future.

Steve: It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

Adam: Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you to our guests, Adam and Steve, for their time and insights today. Adam Anderson is the Vice President of Global Food at Avery Dennison and Steve Basili is the Innovation and Business Transformation Leader at Ernst and Young. If you want to hear more like this, make sure to subscribe to Food System Reimagined on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your podcast app of choice. You’ve been listening to Food System Reimagined, an Ernst and Young Production. This episode was produced by Clara Shannon, with audio production by Kieran Banerjee. Thanks for listening.

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