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Matt C Smith

Please remember that conversations during EY podcasts should not be relied upon as accounting, tax, legal investment, or other professional advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors.

Daniel Flynn

As cutthroat and competitive as business is, for us it's just part of the process of delivering the vision. And we're here to see change at scale in the world. And if people want to join us, let's get creative, right? Let's find a way.

Smith

The truth is that humanity can save itself and our planet. And right at this very moment, there’s someone who took on the challenge — and is on a path to solving an incredibly tough, global problem. This podcast was created to tell you about them.

You’re listening to Better Heroes, a show from the global EY organization about the untold stories of entrepreneurs devoting their lives to impactful innovation. I’m your host, Matt Smith.

Employees today want to work for businesses that have a purpose. But what does that mean and are businesses following their employees' lead? In a world filled with consumerism, can businesses make a difference?

Today’s guests answer those questions with a resounding yes. Businesses can make a difference and Daniel Flynn’s Thankyou proves that. The company sells its products in pharmacies and supermarkets across Australia and New Zealand. But what really makes it special is that it puts all the profits from the sales toward fighting extreme poverty.

Terence Jeyaretnam is the EY Asia-Pacific Climate Change and Sustainability Services Leader. He joined EY after they acquired his sustainability and climate change advisory firm.

Today’s episode is about the difference businesses can make in the world if we change our lens. We start with Daniel.

Flynn

We started a social enterprise in 2008, and the premise back then hasn't changed today. We look at the world and we see one world with two extremes. We see extreme poverty. Right now, there are 719 million people living in extreme poverty. And then we also look at consumerism and we see statistics that read $63 trillion in combined consumer consumption. And we look at that and think, “One world, two extremes. Could we bridge them?” And so, Thankyou is a social enterprise that sells consumer products, and it exists all for the mission. And in a sense, it's a bridge. It's how do we get the consumption dollar, the consumer spending dollar and how do we get it to right this wrong that shouldn't exist?

Smith

And how do we define extreme poverty? We've all heard about poverty. And I come from South Africa, and I had learned that, continentally, since 2016, we've had a reduction. We plateaued with poverty increasing globally, and now we're actually in decline. But extreme poverty seems to be on the rise. So how do we define that?

Flynn

So extreme poverty means people living on less than $2.20 a day. That is one of the measures. There is a second, more complicated kind of multidimensional index that is looked at. But to your point, we are experiencing, for the first time in two decades, a rise in extreme poverty, and that is due to the pandemic. We do remind people that there is hope. 200 years ago, 90% of the world lived in extreme poverty. That classification 100 years ago was 77%. And in 1996, it was down to 33% of the world. So right now, at 790 million, we're talking about 10% of the world still in it. But the goal is to end it. And, you know, we're not the only people working on it. Many, many, many great people and organizations are. But we do believe it's possible.

Smith

But why is it important for you as well as for Thankyou.co to take this number, reduce it and move people into poverty? Or is it to move them out of extreme and poverty and into whatever realm is in between that?

Flynn

Obviously, that doesn't necessarily sound good. You know, our job is to move people into poverty, but it is a spectrum. You know, some of our partners think about raising a village. They're doing incredible work with the ultra-poor. So, it's people who are living on less than $0.40 a day. So, you know, beyond extreme into ultra. The goal is to move people up the spectrum and up the scale.

Smith

The ultimate goal, of course, is to completely eradicate poverty and all the things that go with it — lack of education, hunger, disease — but for now, Thankyou is focused on extreme poverty. And like Daniel said, they’ve already had some success.

Flynn

So extreme poverty is, as it sounds, extreme. And if we can eradicate it, the next job will obviously become kind of the next rung up. And, you know, we will get focused on that. But it is a different situation, too extreme.

Smith

It's interesting to see consumerism as a solution as opposed to what we tend to be told, which is that consumerism is very much an issue, and we should be reducing it to conscious consumerism. So actually, on that topic of conscious consumerism, is that one of the roles of the social enterprise, i.e., to create conscious consumerism? And having said that, what kind of products do you produce to sort of allow us to be conscious consumers?

Flynn

So, it does at times sound a bit jarring. We're using consumerism to try and help change or make a difference in the world. We think we can bring products to market that are good for humanity. And so, we would define that as both for an individual from a safety or health aspect and for the planet. If we can bring that to the table and then commit our profits to help end extreme poverty, that's the future of consumerism, and that's what we are working to bring to the table.

Smith

It's a perfect opportunity to jump over to our other better hero, Terence. I wanted to learn a little bit more about your background and how it's guided you to find these sustainable solutions to social and environmental problems.

Terence Jeyaretnam

Hey Matt, thanks for having me on. And so, I think it was around the same sort of time frame when Thankyou started that I started a consulting firm called Net Balance. And we also, at the time, started a foundation called the Net Balance Foundation. And the idea was that there would be a for-profit and a not-for-profit working side-by-side, and a bit like Daniel’s story, it was using the consumer market of businesses wanting to transition to a more sustainable future to also create solutions for not-for-profits and for raising awareness. So interestingly, the sort of structure for setting up the Net Balance Foundation meant that we attracted premium talent because purpose-driven professionals who wanted to work in sustainability also liked the idea of giving back. And therefore, we managed to attract really high-quality individuals, much smarter than I was. I was surrounded by such people, and we did some really interesting things back in the mid-2000s to 2007.

Smith

And I'm curious, and since you've sort of seen the evolution of this space, with your own business merging with EY. Today, we have EY Ripples, of course, which is very much working in the areas you've just mentioned. But how have you seen the evolution of businesses’ willingness and interest in implementing sustainability solutions into their core businesses? As you said, the labor market seems to be waking up to it, but have businesses really woken up to it yet? Are they implementing it and what are they implementing?

Jeyaretnam

Yeah, it's a really good question. And, reflecting on my career journeys, I was one of the first environmental engineers that Australia put out. And at the time when I did my studies, I didn't even study greenhouse gas emissions during the four-year degree. So, you can imagine that it is only in the last ten years of work that we got to know about climate change. But it's become one of the biggest issues facing the planet and facing business as the world decarbonizes and physical risks start to impact businesses. So, it’s happened really quickly, and it's been great to be part of solving those issues. But unfortunately, I don't believe we've even scratched the surface in terms of needing to create impact.

Jeyaretnam

If you start to look at all the things that humanity needs and everything is going backward, businesses can't operate in a world that's dying. And I think business is coming to terms with it. Lots and lots of businesses are starting to implement ESG within their businesses. But I see that much more as a good hygiene measure. It's not really, you know, solving the crisis that we've got.

Smith

The instigation for a lot of corporates is the fact that legislation is changing as opposed to their sentiment or feelings towards the course. Obviously, Daniel, with your work, you're working very much in the B2C, business-to-consumer space, right? You're trying to use consumer consumption habits to change and promote conscious consumption. I'm curious about the world of Terence, who is working more in the B2B space, business-to-business space. I mean, are you seeing a conscious corporate consumer emerging or is that driven by consumers that work for these corporates?

Jeyaretnam

We are seeing through studies that there is a conscious consumer, and they tend to be about 10% of the market in the Western world. They are willing to pay more for a Thankyou product; they are willing to pay more for a “Who Gives a Crap” product, a toilet brand in Australia that is 100% recycled, and they're prepared to pay that premium or buy offsets when they're flying. And you know, that's the consumers; it's about 10% of the market. What we need, Matt, is neither for conscious consumers to rise nor for corporates to become more socially responsible. What we need is for corporates to understand that their business models are going to have to change rapidly because of the changes that the planet is going through.

Smith

Daniel at Thankyou killed a whole product line of bottled water. They decided the product simply wasn’t sustainable enough to align with their mission. He and Terence agree that in order to have a social impact you have to be willing to radically change the way you do business.

Jeyaretnam

If I give you one statistic, which is that if we weigh up all the mammals that are on the planet at the moment, we've got 33% humans and about 60% domesticated animals — most animals that we eat; we eat about 80 billion animals a year as a race. And there are 4% wild animals.

Jeyaretnam

And that is a scary statistic. We've killed off about 70% of the wild animal species in the last 50 years, according to the WWF. And so, these are rapid changes that businesses need to evolve their business models to cope with. Just like Daniel decided to get rid of the water line, they too can make drastic changes.

Smith

Daniel, on that topic of you as a business owner in this space trying to make your own impactful decisions, you willingly said you killed a product line because you realized it was not contributing to what you thought it was contributing to or it was impacting negatively more than you expected. How do you run your business day-to-day with that sort of mindset and make those quite difficult decisions that might impact the bottom line and the top line? What is your guiding North Star along those processes, or the values and visions?

Flynn

There is such a tension between mission, vision and purpose, to which we absolutely subscribe. This is why we exist and the tension between that and commercial reality, market factors and risk. And so, it is a tension that we manage. I think we talk about purpose at Thankyou as it is not a coat of paint you put on the outside. Purpose is the fuel on the inside, and so it fuels everything. It drives the organization.

Flynn

I think the challenge we've got for organizations, for leaders and for businesses is because of the trend of purpose. At every conference, everyone's talking about it; humans want it. We're all driven by purpose and meaning. And so, we have this trend where some organizations are getting the purpose paint out and putting it on. It's a layer deep. It doesn't affect big changes. I think for us, at Thankyou, our challenge to ourselves and then others, if they're open to it, is: how does the purpose translate right through to the balance sheet and to the inner room of the most mission-critical discussions that you are having as an organization? How is your purpose represented there?

Smith

Daniel, it's interesting because of the incredibly successful business you've built. You know, with advisors and collaborators such as Terence, EY teams and others. But your guiding star and the aim for all of this are, of course, as you mentioned, your purpose, your vision and what is that? What drives you? What is your purpose and your personal vision?

Flynn

We talk about our vision as a world where no one lives in extreme poverty, and that's a vision that we see. But many others share that vision. And then, I think for me personally, our mission to get there is caught up in this idea of really usurping consumerism, meeting consumers where they're at through product, and delivering to changemakers who deliver the ultimate vision. But 14 years into this journey, a lot of my drive is found in mission and vision and getting to meet some of the people whose lives are different now because Thankyou played a small role in that. Those conversations that we've had on trips around the world, are some of the moments in my life that I will never forget. And they held so much weight because it went from, I mean, I started watching videos of kids who didn't have access to clean water. For me, it was through a computer screen, and it was shocking, but in real life, to see the reality and then see the change, that vision compels me, as does the mission.

Flynn

There's a picture in my mind, I suppose, of what Thankyou could be. And it is tied up with the potential of if you could get a model that worked and could make consumers whether out in one category and then another category. You know, outside of tobacco, guns and a few other things, there may be no limits. And so, for us, we've got a pretty ambitious idea of where we see Thankyou going. We're probably going to spend the rest of our lives chasing it. And so, for me, I think what drives me and my purpose is found in this idea of injustice. And there are injustices in this world that need to change.

Smith

Terence, same question for you. You built a business for decades. As you said before, it was trendy to be in this space before it was really accepted. And obviously, now you're teaming up with the EY global organization, of course; I believe they acquired your company in 2014. How have your vision and mission changed or deviated since that acquisition in 2014? Has it been amplified?

Jeyaretnam

Amplification was the intent of merging with the EY global organization — to be able to scale what we were doing into more companies and into more countries and geographies. And to an extent, I feel that's been met. I think the second reason was that I was starting to feel that sustainability was no longer going to be a cottage industry with small consultancies serving businesses. It was going to go to the big consulting firms, and to be really impactful within the executive and boardrooms, you needed to be within EY. So, I think, to that end, those hypotheses have come true. As I said before, I feel that hasn't necessarily changed my vision. I think the vision for the team is still to dial back the changes to the planet and to the climate that we're seeing. And we put out a report last year called “Enough,” which basically criticized incrementalism as the way forward to make big changes. That's been my sort of difference between pre-EY and now. I talk about businesses needing to rethink their business models.

Smith

From the perspective of business-driven solutions for ESG, how can businesses and entrepreneurs use their business models to address these climate change and environmental issues?

Jeyaretnam

So, I think there are, for me at least, two types of entrepreneurs. There are entrepreneurs who are developing things that are not necessarily core to climate change or solving sanitary problems, but they could embed sustainability in their business models because they are early in that sort of evolution. And then there are sustainability or climate tech business models that are trying to solve some of the biggest issues that we're facing. And that's where you've got sustainability and climate, which are core to the business model. And so, I think, if we're looking at the non-core type, if you're going to attract the right talent and the right customers at this stage, B2B, you want to create sustainable, carbon-neutral ESG-oriented businesses. If you're looking at cool, sustainable products and services and you've got lots going on, I think the world is your oyster, as long as you're looking at something that's not already done. But if you look at the whole space of climate, you've got renewable energy, electric cars, electrification, decarbonization and software associated with it; all of that sort of comes into play.

Smith

At the beginning with an understanding of where to start as well, I think for entrepreneurs today is difficult. As you said, which issue is most important? Is it human lives? Is it animal lives, or is it the collective utilitarian perspective? I mean, I'm curious, Daniel, where you sort of decide on the next product area. What is the lowest-hanging fruit to get us out of extreme poverty? But one thing you do very well, Daniel, is your campaigns. I think we can all agree that anyone, if you're listening to this and you haven't seen any of Thankyou.co’s campaigns around their products — I mean, the names alone — you bring humor and personality to issues. So, tell us a little bit about the No Small Plan campaign.

Flynn

Yeah, I mean, that was a big idea. And Terence, thank you for your support on the journey. The campaign was called No Small Plan. We joke that it turned into a no short plan. It's one of the longest things we've ever done. But essentially, the pitch was really simple. We extended an olive branch of sorts to two of our competitors.

Flynn

And we sent a public proposal in the form of two glass trucks with these giant proposals in them. And it was a proposal to change the world. But at a deeper level, it was a partnership agreement. And the idea was to leverage the manufacturing and distribution capabilities around the world of one of them, whoever was up for it. Because, essentially, at Thankyou, we're building another version of that. We're coming to compete with that. They talk about purpose. We're talking about a global scale. And so, we thought, “Well, what if we formed a partnership?” The idea was simple. And the campaign was epic. We had a lot of consumers around the world post their support for the idea of partnership. And I do think we need more of it in the world. The campaign had 2.6 billion media impressions and 828 media features in 38 countries.

Flynn

We were overwhelmed with the people who approached us during the campaign. There were organizations all around the world, independent manufacturers and other competitors. But many different groups reached out saying, “Hey, we can’t do the whole world, but we could do this region or that region, or that we've got this innovation or that innovation.” And that led to what we'd hoped was a few weeks of campaigning turning into a few years of consideration of design and then a whole bunch of work that starts to make its way into the real world.

Smith

The ‘No Small Plan’ campaign demanded collective action and global action. And Thankyou is still running with it!

Flynn

It looks different from maybe how we first thought it would. But there's a beautiful story of many people working together to take the social enterprise to a global scale, which is really a big focus for us. And, you know, we've met some great people through the campaign too.

Smith

It's interesting because your model being let's go to them. Let's not take ourselves too seriously. It sounds as if we have a serious agenda, but let's package that. And hey, we're open for business. We're friendly. It seems like that's been your secret sauce, right, Daniel?

Flynn

Yeah. I mean, that is our heart and intention, because as cutthroat and competitive as business is for us, business is just part of the process of delivering the vision. And we're here to see change at scale in the world. And if people want to join us, let's get creative, right? Let's find a way. And so, a lot of our campaigns are an invitation. Sometimes they have a little bit of an edge to them; maybe there are a few helicopters involved. But the overall idea is, you know, I think Thankyou could be summed up by this idea and it's really a question of what's in your hand. And at 19 for me, this wrestling with how big extreme poverty was and even this idea of consumer products, I looked at what was in my hand. I was like, “That’s not enough?” I've got passion; I've got time; I’ve got no money or resources. It's not enough. It turns out I was right and wrong. But at Thankyou we asked people, “What's in your hand? What do you have? And if we work together, what could that create?” And so, Thankyou is a series of people using what's in their hands.

Smith

Terence, the thing that screams out to me is trying to make this scalable. Right? Thankyou’s model and what Daniel's done with his team are incredible, evident by their success and results. But how do other businesses implement that without Thankyou in every country? Daniel, you have to scale internationally. Obviously, we need to have different clones of you and clones of Thankyou in every market, right? So go to the brands and the businesses locally to create local change because, obviously, going to the ones you're doing which are everywhere, of course, but that takes time. And like you said, we are against the clock a little bit. The game is still in play, but we don’t have much time on the clock. So, Terence, how do other businesses that don't have access to Thankyou or don't have Daniels to go to or to come to them? And in fact, how do they take on and invest in ESG solutions? What is your sort of go-to advice for them? A generalized question, but I'm curious.

Jeyaretnam

Yes. So ESG is an interesting sort of space. A lot of companies — in fact, most companies— talk about it. And really, it's about, as I said before, hygiene. And if they are looking at changing their business models and scaling, they're going to want to acquire a Thankyou, partner with a Thankyou or have an entrepreneur who is able to build out a business from the inside and break that current business model. Now that's very hard to do.

Smith

Daniel says businesses need to find a social impact space to disrupt and then scale. For example, transitioning from gas to electric cars!

Jeyaretnam

We need to see a lot more of that. And, you know, as there are new industries that are created that are social enterprises, biodegradable plastic or industries that are carbon and biodiversity offset funds, these need to be acquired or built out by existing businesses.

Smith

As you say that sounds, it just makes me think about what you touched upon: intrapreneurship, by which we mean basically innovating within a corporate. You were an entrepreneur yourself and then you were brought in; you merged with EY and brought that sort of entrepreneurial thinking inside, working in the areas you're doing. Daniel, you know, you're the media's favorite type of entrepreneur. You started at 19 with a big mission and vision, but you've actually executed it. Because, as you know, the difference between an idealist and an entrepreneur is execution. Over time, it's evident we need more of you, Daniel. We need more entrepreneurs doing things like what you are doing, working with Terences and corporates such as EY that are open to innovation, creating initiatives like EY Ripples and things of that nature. But Daniel, I'm curious: how are you playing a role in supporting other entrepreneurs and inspiring them? Obviously, your figure, branding and campaigns inspire alone. But how are you helping future leaders pursue social enterprises? I mean, extreme poverty. Are you trying to own that space or are you welcoming others to contribute to it?

Flynn

Yeah, I mean, many questions were open and encouraged people to think about extreme poverty. But beyond that, I think it's fascinating how if we went around any room and asked people what causes moved them, you know, what injustices in the world affected them, you would get a really diverse mix of responses. And I think that’s incredible. I don't know exactly why. It's probably people's life experiences and all the different things that have happened. But I love the fact that in each of us there is a drive and I think you've got to pursue that. You've got to discover that; you've got to unite with others, find that common ground and move together. What are we doing? Look, job one is to move Thankyou forward and keep pushing boundaries, maybe breaking some glass ceilings or maybe just bumping our heads into them and rethinking the strategy. We've got a job to do there. We also open along the way. You know, we released a book a couple of years ago called Chapter One and it ended up being a really successful campaign. All the profit from Chapter One funds Chapter Two, The Future of Thankyou. And so, it's a way for consumers to literally contribute to the growth of the organization.

Smith

Chapter 1 is literally an open book on the inception and creation of Thankyou. It answers questions on how to make lasting change in the world. As Thankyou grows, Daniel plans to release his newer learnings in Chapter 2.

Flynn

The idea behind it is that anything we're learning is helpful for us. We'll share it. If there's gold in there, it’s valuable to you. In the dirt-to-gold ratio, it's often more dirt than gold. But if there is gold, it's valuable to you. Take it and go.

Smith

Thanks, Daniel. Terence, what's your biggest advice to young entrepreneurs and innovators on utilizing sustainable solutions for their businesses?

Jeyaretnam

I guess we've talked, and Daniel too has talked a little bit about, justice and how we think about others in the world. And Peter Singer, who's probably the world's leading ethicist, talks about how another life somewhere else in the world is equal to, say, someone in your family and life cycle. And I've been reading a book called What We Owe the Future by William MacAskill. William was the youngest appointed philosophy professor at Oxford. And he talks about life in the future and how that is equal to the life of the present. And sustainability is all about the future and where humanity is. And we talked about Chapter One. We're probably on the first page of a book in terms of humanity as a species with 300,000 years in and usually mammals go for about a million years and we could go a lot longer. But at the current rate, we're not going to get there, let alone in 100,000 years, let alone in a million years. And so, if I can leave a piece of advice, it's to start thinking about the next generation and what business models you can create now that are suitable for the next generation and the generation after, rather than necessarily solving something that's next year's problem.

Smith

Daniel, Terence, thank you both so much. You are true better heroes. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. Appreciate your time.

Flynn

Thank you.

Jeyaretnam

Thanks for having us.

Smith

Thank you all for joining me on this episode of Better Heroes. You can learn more about Terence at EY.com and about Daniel at Thankyou.co. And you can learn more about EY Ripples and all of our impact entrepreneurs at www.ey.com/eyripples. Links are in our show notes.

Please don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast, Better Heroes wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also rate and leave our show a review to help others find out about the amazing work of our impact entrepreneurs. Before we go, we’d like to thank our podcast producers Hueman Group Media, who helped us bring this show to life (pronounced ‘human’).

That’s it for today’s episode. We’ll be back next week.

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Better Heroes is a project of EY Ripples, a global program to mobilize people across the EY network to help solve the world's most urgent social and environmental challenges. By extending EY skills, knowledge and experience to impact entrepreneurs on a not-for-profit basis and forging collaborations with like-minded organizations, EY Ripples is helping scale new technologies and business models that are purposefully driving progress toward the UN’s 17 sustainable development goals.

The views of third parties set out in this podcast are not necessarily the views of the global EY organization or its member firms. Moreover, they should be seen in the context of the time they were made.

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