Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Wendy Harmer

Intro: Change happens how we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how senior business leaders face change. The good, the bad, and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: Hi my name is Jenelle McMaster and welcome to the ‘Change Happens’ podcast. A conversation with senior business leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. Today I have the great privilege of speaking someone who has a very different profile from the corporate and government leaders I’ve been speaking with over the last six months. I’ve asked one of Australia’s most versatile entertainers, broadcaster, author, journalist and stage performer Wendy Harmer to join me to share her reflections on leadership and what COVID-19 has meant for the Arts and Entertainment industry.

Wendy is a veteran of countless international comedy festivals and hosted 2 Day FM’s top rating breakfast show for 11 years, winning 84 of the 88 ratings surveys for that period. She is a strong advocate for women making a mark in the media industry and she was FM Radio’s first true female superstar who truly opened the door for women in FM radio. As a stand up comedian Wendy has performed her one women shows across the world, including Melbourne, Edinburgh, London, Montreal and Glasgow. She has had great success writing fiction and non-fiction titles, including ‘Farewell my Ovaries’, ‘Love and Punishment’ and her series of children’s books ‘Pearlie in the Park’. That series was a best seller in Australia and has been published in 10 countries around the world.

On top of all that Wendy also wrote for and co-produced the hit TV animation series of Pearlie. I look forward to exploring how Wendy has managed all this change in the recent COVID months but also how she creates change and how she reflects the changes in our country and culture through her work.

Gosh that was a mouthful! Wendy, how are you?

Wendy: I’m well thank you.

Jenelle: I need a lie down after that!

Wendy: Thanks Jenelle! I’m even tired!

Jenelle: I can understand it! Tell me now Wendy we’re all navigating COVID here. How has COVID affected your daily work life?

Wendy: It’s so interesting that you ask that question because just this morning I’m on ABC Sydney breakfast radio at the moment. I’ve been broadcasting from home since about March. Every day we catch up on pre and post program and during the program of course. When you’re on Zoom and you’re catching up and then mid-program, before the program and after the program whatever. The one thing that you did miss is the process of ‘brain storming’ when you’re all in a room together. Somehow I think (and I think this is a little bit of a danger) but Zoom can sometimes become ‘process driven’ rather than ‘ideas driven’. You do I think lose a little bit in creativity.

Why is that? Why should that be? I think what can happen is that there is someone who is perhaps not included, there are other people that can dominate, or those who are process driven can take control of proceedings rather than those who are idea driven. It’s an interesting one.

Jenelle: It is actually. I do think something happens when you’re in the room. I’m just exploring this one as I speak out loud here but when we’re in the room, and I was in the room in the office yesterday for the first time in a very long time and I did feel there was more idea generation, mostly because we were quite happy to interrupt and add on and when you’re on a Zoom call I do feel you tend to be more respectful of ‘your turn’, now ‘my turn’ and therefore you don’t have that kind of bumping up against ideas and organically creating stuff.

Wendy: That’s it. That ‘ping, ping, ping’. That can happen.

Jenelle: Well I think being mindful about that and finding other ways to get that creativities is an important part of this. Now you’re talking to the community every day on the radio. I’m interested in whether do you think we’re more connected at this time. I know that we’re socially distanced, in a physical sense we’re not, but what’s your sense of the current sentiment of society?

Wendy: Well it’s interesting. I am a real person who is swimming against the tide on this one I’ve got to say.

Jenelle: I’m sure that’s not the first time you’ve said that Wendy!

Wendy: Well there is almost an industry built up around the fact that we’re more lonely than we ever were before but from what I’ve done, from my reading it looks like the statistics on loneliness are not that much different than they were in the 1940s. I don’t believe that we are more lonely than what we ever have been. I grew up in country Victoria. I know what alone means. It’s means when you’re living in a property and there is one phone and your Dad doesn’t want you to call STD! Get off that phone it’s long distance! And your brothers are listening in and the other farm is too far away. I really do think that we are more connected than ever and it’s interesting that the statistics about suicide apparently during COVID-19 haven’t risen even though that people are saying that there is an epidemic of loneliness. I think that we are more connected than we ever have been. I think we could look at the quality of the way that we connect perhaps but I don’t think it’s true to say that we are more lonely. Yes, more of us are living alone than what we ever have been but I’m not sure that really equates then very directly to ‘loneliness’.

Jenelle: It’s a really interesting one to unpack. I had the privilege of interviewing John Brogden who is the Chair of Lifeline and he was talking, sharing a lot of statistics about the spike in calls for help, mental health, mental resilience, suicide risk and when we talked about the metrics and he talked about this staggering stats I did say it was a bitter sweet metric. I don’t know whether it’s a good or bad thing because the reality is now more people do feel they can reach out. We’ve got a language to articulate loneliness versus being alone. We’ve got support mechanisms in place. We have the ‘R U Ok?’. There is a spike because it’s now ok to be able to talk. We have surface in stuff that was always there before. It’s really hard to really work out what’s going on there but I do think there is a positive sign in more people reaching out and talking about it then.

Wendy: I think, obviously on social media we have got the phenonium of a generation clocking in and comparing themselves with others. This is not just a teenage thing but if you’re on social media, all your friends are having a better life than you are!

Jenelle: Absolutely [7.08] all over the place.

Wendy: It doesn’t matter how successful you are that’s still happening, but I think that you’re right. I think that we now have a lot of tools at our disposal to be able to connect if we want to.

We also (this is obvious) we have a lot of ways to disconnect if we don’t want to because sometimes, in the old days at least and I’m sure it happens in many communities, the pressure of family and expectations is huge and that’s why a lot of us, generations of Australia past took off overseas, left our families behind, moved interstate, so on some levels you could say we have a very disconnected society and you could say that’s a bad thing but on the other hand you could say we are a nation of people who are able to follow their own heart and their own dreams without overwhelming burden of Familia expectation. On balance I think it’s a good thing.

Jenelle: Many of the leaders I’ve been speaking with over the past six months are finding themselves in a situation for the first time that you’ve actually commanded for the three decades and that’s connecting with and engaging with people virtually. That has been exactly what you’ve been doing for a long, long time. I’ve heard you talk about your years in radio and how much you love connecting with your listeners. You talked about moments of utter vulnerabilities when listeners ring in and tell you about some incredibly personal moments. We’re seeing in business, leaders now getting exposure to staff members in areas of vulnerability that they wouldn’t have seen to this extent before. We are talking about mental health. We’re talking about job loss. Loss of identity. Anxiety and the ambiguity. We’re seeing glimpses into people’s home lives and stacks of washing in the background.

Wendy: Sure.

Jenelle: What’s your advice to people where this is so much of a foreign concept to have to engage in this way?

Wendy: That is such a big question I think. Firstly I’ve got to say is that if you perceive that someone is in genuine distress, you’ve got to take that very seriously and you’ve got to engage professional help. I just want to say that at the outset.

I think the message over and over as I’ve learned from radio Jenelle, cause I can’t see people and they can’t see me and so I’ve just learned the lesson of listen, listen, listen. Listen really deeply just try to really tune in. It may be something that a person says that you feel kind of repelled by rather than dismiss it you can say “why do you think that?”. “Where did that come from?” “Where did you learn that lesson?” “Who taught you that?” and you can get back to some very, very interesting answers. Rather than just shutting people down.

Jenelle: It’s great. I want to turn to topics around transparency and vulnerability. I heard you make the statement once the biggest thing I had to do on radio is to know who I was going to be on radio. Then you went on to explain that you needed to decide what you would or wouldn’t share. What kind of persona you’d have. Reveal it all and you’ll bore or overwhelm the listeners. Don’t reveal enough and you’ll be robotic and unrelatable. You also said that no matter what’s happening in your life you have to set the tone on air. I kind of want to put that in a bit of a context of our worlds here. We find ourselves in a world where expectation is much higher to reveal more of ourselves at work – to show vulnerability, be more human but we’ve still got to be strong and hold ourselves to extremely high standards. Maybe it’s a different world but I’m interested in how you’ve been able to strike the right balance for you and what counsel you might have for others trying to find the right balance of ‘what’ and ‘how much’ they bring of themselves into the workplace?

Wendy: Well you know that’s a very big question with a lot of things to it.

Jenelle: I like big questions Wendy!

Wendy: Maybe I can just give you a little bit of an answer here. My job, and I’ve always thought this on radio, is to not bring my personal travails into the work place. I know that sounds ridiculous. You’re allowed to be vulnerable. Of course you’re allowed to be vulnerable but you’re now allowed to bring in what’s happened at home and infect the workplace or more importantly in my world, bring that to the radio.

So I spent many, many years having a little moment where I would, and before I went on air, and I still do it to this day on ABC in the mornings, I do a little bit of a mental check of where I am and I think what am I bringing to people here. Am I bringing my kind of best upbeat optimistic self and if I’m not I just go and stand in the corner. I mean I physically remove myself. I did it for years.

Jenelle: Put yourself in the corner.

Wendy: I stand myself in the corner and I just think what are we on about here Wendy? What’s my job? What am I doing? It doesn’t mean to say that I may not burst into tears over something or be cross, but just to really have an internal check.

Jenelle: Now given the strength of your personal profile. You’re obviously a recognised personality, comedian, author, it’s really easy to think of you as a solo operator but you’ve had many decades in radio and you would have worked in many, many teams over the course of your radio career. You touched upon this in the beginning that creativity. There would be the need for a lot of creativity, brain storming, different ideas that have to be pitched. Some get up, some don’t. I would imagine that they’d be times that go from peak tension through to peak engagement.

How do you work with teams to get that right balance of creative tension? Versus tipping into that more destructive or counterproductive level of conflict?

Wendy: Well you know I’m an expert in this! I’ve managed to survive but whether I’d be an expert! One of the greatest things I love in a group. Someone who is may be a junior comes up with this idea and says “Well I’d like to do a series on air of la, la, la and you can just see everyone around the room going well obviously this person is not up to this, they’re never going to be able to pull it off! Why are we even thinking about this? I love saying “Fantastic!” “Do it!” and then even if it’s not up to snuff, put it on air. Then you ask the person “What did you think of that?” I can see it could be improved by this, this, this and I’m always really energised by that. When I go back to my early comedy career that’s exactly how it was for me when I was doing the Big Gig, all those years ago, 30 years ago. I had a Director, Ted Robinson who would say “right we’re going to give you a monologue or whatever it might be, we need 7 minutes”. I would go “Oh my God I don’t think I can do that.” But I would be an enthusiast and I would rise to the occasion and then I’d come out afterwards and say (and this has been on national television mind you!) and I would ask him afterwards “What did you think?”, “What did you think?”. And he’d say well “What did you think?” And of course anyone who is worth their soul is going to say “Well I could have done that better”, because that person is going to be their best critic and they are going to improve beyond all sight.

So I’m a great believer in giving really hard jobs to people who put their hands up and might have a little bit of a doubt if they can do it but I tell you what they’re the ones that are going to be the best people. The ones that put their hands up for a job that they’re probably not quite up to the mark for doing if you know what I mean.

Jenelle: Yeah I do.

Wendy: One of the things that’s brilliant about radio that I love, it’s always attracted me to radio. Is we plan, and plan, and plan radio. We gather in meetings before, during, after the show, it’s incessant, but the thing that actually gives me the most excitement is we get on air and all of a sudden all our plans, they’re beautiful, they’re all there.

They’re up on the board, they’re lovely, they’ve been typed, they’re gorgeous, and then someone just throws an incendiary bomb, be a listener or whatever, or a news item and then the whole thing is chucked in the bin. I love nothing more than chucking a plan in the bin!

Jenelle: What is it that you love so much about that?

Wendy: Well what it is, it means that you’re working in the moment. It’s like stand up too that you’re feeding off… a good stand up you’re feeding off what happens in the moment. You might have a set routine but a heckler might throw something in or a light might fall down out of the ceiling or whatever it might be and then you’re just forced off into some kind of flight of fancy. That’s really when you’re in an really incredibly creative zone. The audience also recognises that this is something that they’re never going to hear again. This is something really special and bespoke and unique and they’re lucky to be a part of it and they go along with it. It’s really one of those things I think about radio that’s so lovely is, often it’s “Well you had to be there!”. You had to be there! One of the things about being in radio that you have to face up to is it’s completely ephemeral. It’s gone. It’s absolutely gone and mercifully put in the rubbish bin along with your embarrassment plan and along with your dignity and everything else! It’s all put in the rubbish bin at the end of the day and then you start afresh which is kind of a lovely thing. And you can’t stand on your dignity.

You asked me a little earlier about figuring out who you are on radio. You can figure it out to a certain extent but I tell you what over time you can’t fake it. People are going to figure out exactly who you are.

Jenelle: Wendy, now this is a podcast that’s all about people’s experiences with change, Change Happens. There is the change that people proactively seek out as well as the change that’s hoisted upon them. You’ve had plenty of experiences with both. You’ve had changes with your physical experience. You’ve had multiple career changes. Journalism, broadcasting, comedy writing. You’ve had kids later in life.

I know this is a broad question but tell me your views about change and what you think about change. How you manage it? Whether or not you even seek it out?

Wendy: Jenelle, would you like to break that question into about 25 pieces?!

Jenelle: I told you it was a broad question! Is it something that you’re hungry for?

Wendy: Jenelle, can I give you a radio series of about 2,000 parts? Oh my gosh! So a lot of questions! Oh my gosh! All I can say is I’ve probably had plan a), b), c), d), and e) my whole life. Plan a) – international superstar!

Jenelle: Tick!

Wendy: Plan b) – right down to.. and in media as well, right down too.. It was so funny cause I was talking about this on the air the other day and we were talking about exactly this thing about change and what’s on your bucket list or things that you might do. Everything goes pear shaped! Mine was open a range of salsas. Wendy Harmer’s salsa range cause I’m quite a dead hand at growing chillies! So I’ve kind of had that, a bit like Paul Newman. I’ve kind of [19.36] in the bottom drawer, my cascading list of things that I can do. What can I say there is always another opportunity!

Jenelle: Well it seems like you always do seek out ways to try different things, seek different things, learn different things about yourself.

Wendy: Yeah well because of my upbringing and having a cleft palate when I was young. My Dad was a very hard task master in wanting me to be able to speak very well. After I hosted the first episode of the Big Gig on national television I rang my Dad and he said (he’s a Head Master) “I thought the diction was quite good”.

Jenelle: The diction?!

Wendy: Crikey!

Jenelle: That is a word that is not used much these days.

Wendy: Well exactly. Then my mother noted that I had a short skirt on and said “What do you think your knees are saying Wendy?” I mean really?! Anyway!

Jenelle: Let’s just stay there for a second Wendy. You’re not with your knees or with your short skirt. The topic I’d say there is a lot of heavily used if not over used words at this time. Certainly not diction but words like ‘unprecedented’, ‘new normal’, ‘pivot’ and some seem to have really lost their power and their impact by virtue of their overuse, like resilience. But words like resilience are very real words and is a very real attribute that’s been called upon, we’re all being asked to develop in this time. I want to talk about your lessons and resilience because as you said you were born with a severe case of bi-lateral cleft and lip palate and that wasn’t properly corrected until age 15 which I reckon has to be one of the most sensitive times in your developing years when the acute sensitivity to looks, to difference, to acceptance is at it’s all time high. You were brought up as you say, your father was a Head Master. You’ve described that as a tough love regime. There were quite brutal times through that, how do you forge a resilience through that?

Wendy: You know it’s such a funny thing Jenelle. These days, every now and then I get a text saying “Well it’s alright for you to be resilient because you had a really bad time”.

Jenelle: Oh wow that’s an interesting perspective on it.

Wendy: You know Jenelle I’m not really sure where it comes from either and I have interviewed a lot of people over the years who find that resilience. I’m not really sure where it comes from either. I think that can you learn resilience? I wonder whether you can. I’m not really sure. There is a good deal of psychological research which says if you can’t do something you can do something by pretending you can do it. Do you know this?

Jenelle: Yes.

Wendy: If you’re not a confident person, fake being a confident person.

Jenelle: Fake it to you make it.

Wendy: It’s actually interesting isn’t it.

Jenelle: Yeah there has been a really interesting article written I think it’s Oliver Berkman who talks about ‘imposter syndrome’ and sort of says you have to recognise. The first step to imposter syndrome is recognising that you are an imposter. The reality is there is a first for everybody right. Everyone is actually trying to figure it out. Some are just more honest about it than others.

Wendy: Yep sure. Look I’m with you this whole imposter syndrome I really loathe. As if it’s special, as if it’s only some people feel it. I think that we all do. I think it’s completely natural to feel like you’re an imposter and in fact, I think it’s a good motivator. It’s a great motivator to say well I feel like I’m an imposter but I’m going to learn my craft here and I’m going to put in the solid work and then I won’t feel like an imposter anymore. But it’s actually a really motivating thing I think.

Jenelle: I think so. I think if you use it as a [23.35]. I mean the first time you wrote a book you were an imposter in the author’s space.

Wendy: Of course.

Jenelle: You’ve never done it before but you lean into it.

Wendy: Well you’re an imposter as a teenager, you’ve never been a teenager before, like Der.

Jenelle: That’s true.

Wendy: Resilience can be something that you think is some muse is something that is out there in the ethos some mystical sort of quality. But resilience can also be “ok I’m going to be really methodological about this”. I’m going to say “ok I got knocked back on this, this means that I can do this.”

I mean in some ways resilience can be a flowchart. It can be a personal flowchart for you. You say this person doesn’t like me, ok I’ll go there. This project won’t work, oh okay I’ll go there. Ok if I’ve got no there, then I’ve got a yes here.

But I think you can use intelligence to plan your way out of it. It isn’t a completely terrible thing when you are absolutely over looked and bullied and victimised and all those terrible things. But for a lot of the people who you would say were resilient I would bet you they have sat down and they’ve looked at it on paper and thought “ok there is another way around this.” There is another way that I can go. I can go under, or around, or over this obstacle and then I can find another way. I can find people who can help me. I can find aides and colleagues, services or whatever that might be and then I’m going that will help me go onto b) here.

I think as for the spirit though it makes you go back to the drawing board I don’t know where that comes from. I really don’t. I think most of us probably have it. Cause I’m not like Donald Trump I don’t think it’s in the DNA at all and I would never say it’s in the DNA. There is something else going on there which is interesting and I actually think it’s Dad in some ways teaching me about systems and how to learn and if you start to know about systems and how to learn, then you learn how to plan. Then you learn how to find information. Then you learn how to get around obstacles. So resilience as I say isn’t a weird mystical thing that’s handed to you like a sermon on the mount.

Jenelle: Well I was just going to say as well on how to learn bit. I think that’s really important because if you have an experience and then you try something and it didn’t work and if you pause to reflect on that, that it didn’t work and then you might do something else. That mindful learning is actually what you then feed into getting up again and having another go.

Wendy you talked about bullying and being victimised and I think this probably an extension of this resilience conversation but I read an opinion piece that you wrote about your experience for the first time getting on the school bus after you’d had your life changing surgery. It was an incredibly powerful description of that school bus experience. You talk about the dynamics of the bus, the dominance, hierarchies. You talk about the dominant males had the back seat, the alpha females were just in front of them. The nondescript in the middle. The misfits and newbies at the front. And you wrote being nondescript was our survival mechanism and anyone who was different was brutally picked on. So the name of the game was safety in numbers and to blend in as much as possible.

Honestly when I read that it brought back strong memories for me. I was teased as a kid as the only dark skinned girl in my school. I worked over time to make sure I never took curries into school. I had vegemite sandwiches and blue eyeliner like all the blue eyed girls would wear. I worked myself really hard to be as ‘white’ and I put that in inverted commas as possible at the time.

Yet you’ve made a career of standing out on your own. You’ve put yourself on the biggest stages and I think about this resilience thing. Do you remember how and when you made a decision to actually leverage those differences as your source of strength? Rather than hide it away and blend in?

Wendy: Can I just preface this answer by saying Jenelle of course you just hid away and blended in! You’ve taken the same lessons as me haven’t you?

Jenelle: I have. It’s taken me a very, very long time to realise that actually was my super power, those differences. But I’m interested in when that moment happened for you?

Wendy: Well I’m kind of interested in you now.

Jenelle: Oh here we go, this is always the risk with speaking to a radio announcer!

Wendy: Yeah exactly! How did you get to the point where you realised it was your super power?

Jenelle: You know for the longest time in business and I’m not sure how we got to this point but anyway I’m here with you turning the tables on me. I remember being in business and we’re being told you’ll be a partner in this firm one day but I kept saying but I don’t look like everybody else. I’m not male. I want to be a Mum. I’m ethnic. I started my career in the army for goodness sake and not in consulting at all. Then I realised that actually there is a whole sea of people that look (with no disrespect to any of those people) but they look the same and actually my voice is different and there was a whole lot of people that I worked with who kept saying to me “You’re like us”, “Or if only there were more people like you around” and my boss said to me “Well if you can’t see it just be it. Be that person that you wanted to see yourself”, and I did do that and I had to trust in the fact that the organisation would let me be. I stay true to me and they would let me shine as that and full credit to the organisation it absolutely did. But that took quite some time.

Wendy: What’s your background Jenelle?

Jenelle: I’m Fijian Indian.

Wendy: Ok. So you were in the army?

Jenelle: Yeah, actually I started my career in prisons. I was a forensic psychologist, my background.

Wendy: Wow.

Jenelle: Yep studied. I loved Silence of the Lambs was fascinated about it. I wanted to be
Clarice Starling who had this ability to connect with people on a level that could see something in everybody. So that was the beginning of my.. and then I joined the army as a Military Psych. Did about 7 years there and then I changed into corporate psychology.

Wendy: What you’re pursuing now and I sense that you pursued earlier on in life, you said you are looking for clarity. How do you pursue something like clarity? I mean is actually achievable do you think?

Jenelle: Somebody once said something to me which was I asked the question “How do you I get clear?” If you don’t know things like purpose. If you don’t know what you want to be doing next. Someone said something which didn’t seem profound at the time but actually has taken on more prominence to me. He said “activity breeds clarity”. Get out there. Speak to people. You’ll get a sense of what resonates with you. You’ll get a sense of what you don’t like and you’ll get a sense of things you do like. I think clarity has just come from doing rather than imagining or planning, I’ve just kind of gotten in there and gone “mmm that worked”, “that didn’t”, “that resonated”, “that didn’t”. I got feedback from people that mattered to them and they made me feel good. I felt that was a space that was sitting comfortably for me or comfortable/uncomfortable and I felt like I was growing through that. So I think that’s been a part of that.

Wendy: Well Jenelle to get back to your question. There is a bit of a journey there I guess about being the nondescript kid in the middle to being the person standing up on stage, going “Blah, blah, blah!” How did all that happen? That’s probably a pretty good question. I got to the point I suppose in my late 20’s where people stared at me so much and said things about me behind my back so much because of the way that I looked and I thought “ok if you are going to stare at me I’m going to give you something to stare at!”

I thought “alright I’m going to put myself up on stage in the Last Laugh and I’m going to do stand-up comedy and if you want to make a comment go right ahead because this is me and you can look at me and you can tell me what you think of me. Of course it completely back fired I ended up telling most people what it was I thought about them then what they thought about me!

Jenelle: You just faced straight into it. Really put it on the table.

Wendy: It was just a little bit of a line in the sand where I said “You want to talk about me, I’ll give you something to talk about!”

Jenelle: Let’s do this!

Wendy: and that’s where it went from there. Really. I know that’s a weird thing to say.

Jenelle: Where does that confidence come from? Where does that bravado, that confidence come from?

Wendy: Oh ranks stupidity probably! I can tell you about the night that it happened.

Jenelle: Yeah do it!

Wendy: How I went from being a political journalist and they said “Oh Wendy you’re good, you’re on your way to Canberra” to be in the press gallery. I think now I’m really said I missed out on that in some ways but.. !

Jenelle: That’s in the plan f), plan g)!

Wendy: Plan f) yeah exactly. I was sent one night to cover as a young journo to cover a night of cabaret at Monash University. It was called the New Cabaret. It was the thing darling. There was Paul Grabowsky and Steve Vizard who was singing Frank Sinatra. Gina Riley was in the show. Richard Stubbs and a whole lot of other people and I just sat there and I thought “Holy hell – this is amazing! This is the best thing I’ve ever seen!”

Anyway I went back to work and I duly wrote my little review of the show and about a month later I just handed in my resignation. I said “I’m going to be a stand-up comedian”, and they went “What?!” “Are you insane?”

So I went and worked on a local community newspaper so I had the time to be able to work on my stand-up routines and get up the nerve, get up the guts to be a stand-up comedian. I listened a lot to records of people who did stand-up comedy. American women really because there weren’t that many, well there weren’t any Australian women stand-ups that I could listen to. So I listened to Joan Rivers and Whoopi Goldberg and then I booked myself into an open mike night at [33.55] Last Laugh. By this time I was a bit of a groupie. I was hanging around watching all the comedy and I booked myself in and all the blokes said “Oh my God it is so traumatic you’ll probably throw up, but don’t worry about that you’ll be fine!” So I walked out on stage and I stand there with the microphone and the light comes on and I go “Are you kidding, I get paid, I’m in the spotlight!”

Jenelle: Oh you loved it straight away?

Wendy: I’ve got a microphone and there is no one to interrupt me! Are you kidding?! This is the best thing in my entire life! Just for me it was a bit of an epiphany really! Here I am at the age of 65 in a couple of weeks.

Jenelle: Wow.

Wendy: Still standing there going on “Are you kidding?!” You mean I get paid! Over a microphone! Does it get any better than this!” So just a professional big mouth in the end!

Jenelle: Well you know what. Well done to you because we always say that if you can find something that you love, that you are good at and that people are willing to pay for, then you’ve struck gold.

Wendy: Well ching ching! Jackpot!

Jenelle: Nice!

Wendy: You know what I forgot to say even if I wasn’t being paid for it, you’d probably find me in Hyde Park standing on a soap box going “And another thing!”.

Jenelle: All those people that have paid you a fortune, damn if only I had known that I could have got it for free! How do you actually plan for what’s next though? I know you’ve got all these ideas and the salsa is right up there with them. How do you plan for what’s next?

Wendy: Well I do have plans. I’ve got my little 5 year plan ready.

Jenelle: Ok.

Wendy: Maybe it’s about … when I wrote my kid’s books I included a lot of lists. I know that little girls love lists.

Jenelle: Yes!

Wendy: I think maybe as big girl I don’t mind a list as well. I can do this, I can do this. I like to psychologically always this is my big thing, prepare myself psychologically for the next bit so that I can land in a good place. That sometimes takes a bit of work.

Jenelle: What does psychologically preparing yourself look like?

Wendy: I’ll say it being a Libran and then no one will listen switch off. What does psychologically preparing myself look like? It’s talking to friends. Talking to family. Boring them absolutely shitless.

Jenelle: Testing it out really.

Wendy: Reading a lot. Trying on different imaginary costumes. Maybe counselling along the way too so I can sort my thoughts. I like to be the mistress of my own destiny. As a child – I come from a broken family and a very difficult broken family. I don’t like surprises. I’m imagining you don’t either Jenelle?

Jenelle: No not my favourite, my husband will laugh when he hears me say this! What’s your hope for society? We’re all navigating this global pandemic, what would you hope for as a society how we come out of this? Is there some changes you would hope that we would take forward with us forever?

Wendy: Look I mean there are not going to be any changes, we’re just going to come out as the sort of venal backstabbing, terrible, terrible people we are.

Jenelle: I was going to finish on this note but now I’m going to have to think of another question!

Wendy: Climbed out of the primordial swamp. But optimism. I think the only game in town is optimism. I’m a big fan of optimism.

Jenelle: Me too.

Wendy: I don’t know what really else there is to be said. The one thing.. you know it’s interesting when I met my husband who’s a dye in the wall activist, greenie, whatever he drives me up the wall, I can’t tell you.

Jenelle: Do gooders!

Wendy: The reason that I married him he said “you know in the past we didn’t know how bad things were and now we do. Now we can take action.” I thought that’s pretty good, I’ll think I’ll marry you. You know I’m an optimist. I’ve got my rosy coloured glasses on because the one thing that radio has brought me over the years is in you’re in touch with so many good people who care so much, who love their families. I just believe in the good. I can’t think any other ways. The other way is too depressing.

Jenelle: I’m with you. I’ve spoken to a lot of leaders in this time and optimism is the common characteristic in trade of all of them.

The last three. Three fast questions on change to finish the podcast.

Jenelle: I want to finish up Wendy. We always finish with the three fast questions. It’s more on the light hearted side not that there hasn’t been light hearted moments throughout this, but what’s a misconception that most people have about you?

Wendy: They don’t have any! I’ve been talking about myself for 30 years. What are you even talking about? They don’t have any! None!

Jenelle: Fair enough. I think that’s fair enough! Right what about one guilty pleasure? Maybe you don’t feel guilty about any of your pleasures? But tell me!

Wendy: I watch trash television like you wouldn’t believe!

Jenelle: Ok we are definitely going to [39.29]

Wendy: My one guilty pleasure is shows about wedding dresses! And I say yes to the dress! Any show that is about a wedding I’m there, pathetic!

Jenelle: Interesting, ok great. What’s one thing that you’re hopeless at?

Wendy: Well I’m a pretty fantastic freeform dancer especially if I’ve had a couple of drinks! But I want to take you back to the Last Laugh in 1980 something and I had to learn a dance routine and there was someone from Tony Bartuccio Dancers who came to teach us this routine. I think Magda Szubanski was on as well. He was reduced at the end of an hour to being on his knees and having my right foot and my left foot in his hands and crying!

Jenelle: Ok so I’ve got some crazy visual that I’m sure it’s not right, the contortions just cannot be right.

Wendy: I cannot learn a dance routine! It was a great sadness but I don’t know my left from my right.

Jenelle: I’ve got Elaine Benes from Seinfeld visual happening now.

Wendy: Yeah my husband calls me ‘Compass’ and I still mix up my left from my right. I’m 64 for Christ sake.

Jenelle: Well Wendy look I would love to keep talking to you. I’ve loved the conversation today but a few things to me that I’ve taken away from our conversation. I love the message around tuning in. Listening for the nuance and investing time to unlock personal stories.

I’ve loved the message around the power of being in the moment. Letting it go and really exploring what’s in that moment and, the conversation around resilience and finding an alternative way and learning how to learn as two aspects that are key to building resilience.

Many, many other things in there but it’s been a wonderful conversation. I can’t thank you enough for your time.

Wendy: Well thank you Jenelle and I think our next podcast is I’m interviewing you? Is that right?

Jenelle: No! No! we’re done! Thanks Wendy.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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