Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Tony Johnson

This podcast series “Change Happens, is a conversation with senior business leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. When we set out creating a podcast about how we cope, deal and work through change we didn’t expect it to be amid the biggest worldwide change in modern history, COVID-19. Actually, when I recorded this podcast with Tony Johnson it was early February and we were face-to-face. Coronavirus was in it’s earliest stages of being known and talked about. It hadn’t yet been named COVID-19 and there were certainly no signals that what would follow the next month would be the declaration of a global pandemic, where the world would shut down borders and the term “social distancing” would become both a new entrant into our vernacular as well as a forced way of operating. So, whilst that discussion with Tony almost feels like a lifetime ago, in this podcast we discuss what it’s been like for Tony to evolve and lead over 30 years at EY. We looked at how leaders can not only endure but evolve, and I can guarantee you’ll get a lot out of his insights into purpose, inclusion, listening and taking action. But with the extraordinary circumstances that we’ve all found ourselves in over the last four months of COVID 19, I felt it was important to touch base with Tony again, just to share some reflections on what it’s been like to lead the organisation and whether he’s had some more learnings to add to his repertoire of insights as a result of this period of time. Here’s Tony.

Janelle: Hi Tony. Welcome to the Change Happens podcast.

Tony: Thanks Janelle, great to be here.

Janelle: How are you going during this time?

Tony: I think we’re going pretty well. Like, it’s certainly been challenging and testing. It’s gone for a lot longer than any of us would have hoped but I don’t think we want to lose sight of the some been real positives out of it as well. I’ve enjoyed not being on planes and spending more time with my family. I think they think the same!

Janelle: Well, we’ll certainly get into some of those positives. But, you know, it struck me that, you know, when we recorded the first interview you and I would have interacted together, I don’t know, once a week, maybe once every couple of weeks. And then COVID hit and I think that first month we might have been interacting maybe three times a day, six days a week and then it dropped to twice a day, six days a week and now, you know, daily. It feels quite different sitting back in a seat talking to you, albeit virtually this time.

Tony: Yeah, gee I must tally up those meetings. I suspect it goes into the hundreds. It’s been intense but also the bond that I feel that you and I and the others that have been involved in that close group have formed, yes, we’ve been tired, we’ve been cranky, we’ve been happy, but you do form a great bond when you’re working together on a pretty tough assignment, demanding assignment.

Janelle: We’ve certainly gotten to know each other’s quirky attributes. You can almost predict them at times now, which is something endearing in an of itself, I think. Well, that’s what I’m going with! Now, I know you’ve always described yourself as an optimist. Tell me, how do you think your tendency towards being a glass half full person has served you through the pandemic?

Tony: Yeah, I mean I think in tough times, and make no mistake, this COVID time has been challenging and testing for all of us, I think you know a feeling of hope is so important. So I think being glass half full has helped as act of some form of offset to all the negative news, whether it be health news or economic news which has really pervaded the past three or four months. And, to be honest, I think all that negative news could quite easily be or feel overwhelming. So whilst you can’t be naïve and ignore reality, I do think having a positive outlook has helped me personally and then I hope it’s, you know, maybe meant that I’ve been able to share and create a sense, however small, of hope in others that COVID-19 will pass, that we’ll adapt, we’ll flex, we’ll work our way through whatever is thrown at us and reminding everyone that there are some positives to come from this that we do want to bottle and keep going forward.

Janelle: Yeah, I’ve certainly found that realistic view of where we’re at right now coupled with the optimistic view, that hope you talked about for the future, has been super helpful. One of the things that you said to a group of us actually fairly early on in that lockdown period was “the crisis is the curriculum”. What did you mean by that?

Tony: I know it’s not one that I made up myself, so I must have borrowed it from someone, but I guess I was referring to the really the opportunity to learn and to lead in this COVID environment, this COVID world. Now, whether that be sort of personal reflection or observing what others do in a pressured environment, we can see the positives and negatives of human behaviour and of leadership and I think those attributes and achievements, they’re exacerbated. So it’s almost like a classroom – being in a crisis is a classroom on steroids, if you like. In a way there’s no better classroom or curriculum than being present and mindful and being observant in a crisis like COVID-19.

Janelle: And so what have you learned during that period?

Tony: I think we’ve seen remarkable adaptability and flexibility of not only individuals, corporates, governments, communities, it really has proven what we can do when we have to. Look, in many cases our capacity to transform, that’s been turbocharged. You know, you look at telehealth, where we fast-tracked our digital capability from 10 years to 10 days. I guess I’ve been reminded of the goodwill, the generosity of spirit, the collaboration we’ve seen in EY and in the community more broadly. I think there’s been a willingness for important stakeholders to better engage and collaborate. But I guess what I hope I never forget is the importance of communicating, and that’s being honest, empathetic, visible and then creating that sense of hope that I referred to. So I think the COVID lesson, crisis in the curriculum, has been the ability to sort of to be curious, to be agile and to learn is key to thriving.

Janelle: Mm, and I like the, I guess, the mindful learning because I think often when we’re trying to just get through something, get through the crisis, you don’t have time to sort of stop and pause and go what is it that I’m learning now? What do I want to keep doing more of? And I think sort of having that awareness and mindfulness of what it is that we’re learning during this period of time is where some of that stuff becomes embedded as a new normal.

Tony: Yeah. I think it’s so important in the pressured situation that you can stand back and see the forest for the trees, because it goes back to my earlier remarks, it can be overwhelming if you’re just caught on the hamster wheel going round and round and round, getting faster, faster and faster and I think that to be able to stand back and observe yourself and observe others really is important.

Janelle: So, speaking of that hamster wheel, what have you found the toughest to be dealing with during this period?

Tony: I think it’s been the intensity of the cadence and for how long it’s gone, and we were talking about the meetings that we’ve had. But we immediately move to a crisis cadence of operation and maybe do that in other crises you do it for a few days or maybe a week but this has been extreme, you know, for really for four months and maybe we’ve got more to go. And I think clearly the uncertainty and disruption is a drain on everyone’s, including mine, energy levels and your wellbeing more broadly. So I think a really valuable learning for me, and you helped me this, was sort of understanding and appreciating that we all operate at different speeds and will mentally and physically fatigue at different times. And, you know, I’m a particularly insistent person to get things done and so a key sort of learning and development for me was to operate in a way that was probably more understanding, more aware, more flexible but more sustainable, not only for me but also for other team members, which meant that it was more sustainable for the firm more broadly.

Janelle: That’s really interesting. So in that first podcast which people will hear straight after we’ve finished this section, but you talked about that insistence and so it’s super interesting to hear how that insistence has played out now and how you then needed to adjust and evolve that under crisis.

Tony: Yeah, yeah. I guess it brings to life the learning of the period and the positives that can come from it, the crisis is the curriculum.

Janelle: Yeah, it certainly is. And what’s been the most surprising thing to you?

Tony: Oh, I think it comes back to some of my earlier remarks around the generosity of spirit and the goodwill of people. The collaboration and the teaming, and if I go back to the bushfires, which is not that long ago, in the Australian context in some ways has been forgotten in line of COVID-19. You know, it’s in that adversity that you really see the qualities of people and I think that’s played out during COVID-19 as well.

Janelle: I once heard someone say, Tony, that the best way to avoid having to make rushed decisions is to have made good decisions earlier. That sort of stayed with me, that sentence. I wonder were there any good decisions that you felt you made or the organisation made ahead of COVID that has served you and the organisation well during this crisis?

Tony: Yeah, look I think the first was our investment in technology and testing that technology in advance and the idea that 9,000 EY people in Oceania could move to working remotely within days was, you know, historically would have been a crazy one. But we did it. We sort of did it a week earlier than the market and in worked seamlessly. So I call out technology. But the other was really from the outset - good luck or good management - but we adopted a human-centred approach to our response and it really drove our thinking, our philosophy, our decisions, our communications and I think it meant that our people were on the journey with us. They knew what we knew and they also knew what we didn’t know, and there was plenty of those things. It wasn’t room for a vacuum in information or for ambiguity and I guess I’ve always been conscious that human nature means that ambiguity will always be perceived negatively. So I think a human-centred approach in the communications that followed sort of helped avoid widespread negativity, notwithstanding the disruption and the uncertainty that everyone was living through.

Janelle: That’s great. So, when we spoke previously about your predictions for society and, at the risk of having a bit of a spoiler alert here, you said “humans will always be at the centre and they will always need to be leaning in, listening and acting”. What do you think about those words now? Does it take on any different level for you? Do you stand by that? Is there any evolution of that given the last four months?

Tony: Maybe I was more profound than I thought I was. But, no, there’s no change in my thinking in that way, Janelle. If anything it’s reinforced my views that humans will always be at the centre and really through this crisis you’ve – leaning in, as much as you can lean into a global pandemic, listening and we’ve had the benefit of many great experts, health experts, psychological experts helping us through this process. It’s reinforced my views. In fact I’m perhaps more stronger in those views.

Janelle: Well thanks so much for that Tony. We’re now going to get back to our conversation talking about your journey and other learnings in that original chat. Thank you.

Tony: Thanks Janelle.

Janelle: Alright, Tony, so who are you and what is it that you do?

Tony: Well, Janelle, I’m CEO for EY in Oceania which covers Australia, New Zealand, Fiji and Papua New Guinea and that takes up quite a bit of my time but as you would expect, there’s a life outside of EY which involves being a husband, a father, a son, a brother.

Janelle: So I once heard Simon Sinek say that the title of CEO is probably one of the poorest descriptors of what a role is. Other roles like CFO, Chief Financial Officer, are clearer. So how would you describe what a CEO does or what it is?

Tony: I hadn’t heard that reference from Simon but I respect everything he’s got to say and maybe he’s right in a way because there’s so much variety within a day, within a week, within a month and then I think over the period that I’ve been CEO, five years going to six years, there’s been so much change that’s occurred as well. But in some ways, I think there’s a similarity between parenting and being a CEO. As you know, I come up with my homespun theories.

Janelle: You do!

Tony: And one around what parents need to do for their kids - and I call them the Johnson Three Es - which is that parents need to provide their kids with three things all starting with E, esteem, experiences and education. And in the workplace, I guess I see our role and my role to be not much different. The people within EY, I think, need to have their esteem built and supported. We need to provide experiences and we also need to provide the opportunity for education, both in soft and hard skills.

Janelle: And how would you describe yourself or perhaps I should ask how your friends and others around you would describe you?

Tony: You might get different answers from that. Look, I’d describe myself as positive. I think I’m a glass half full sort of person. I certainly enjoy life and having a laugh. I’m, certainly at home, regarded as being patient. At the same time I’m insistent on getting things done. So, if someone commits to a task or is asked to a task, then I really struggle with procrastination and I guess maybe it’s a bit of a case of “don’t put off till tomorrow what you can do today”.

Janelle: I feel the need to check with Natalie, your wife, as to whether or not she would say that you were patient, but let’s accept that for now.

Tony: She would probably put insistent first but then she would have patient in there at some point, I’m think.

Janelle: Now, I’m sure as a kid you weren’t aspiring to be a CEO – maybe you were, I could be wrong. But what did you want to be when you were a kid and how and why did that change, do you think?

Tony: Yeah, I don’t think I was – ever really gave much focus to what I wanted to be, but I suspect I thought I was going to play test cricket for Australia, AFL football and Davis Cup tennis, none of which has happened and I think the key reason for that is I wasn’t good enough.

Janelle: That could have something to do with it, but good on you. So I think you still maintain an active hand in sport so.

Tony: I enjoy sport, watching and playing, perhaps certainly not with the same fervour of energy or fitness that I used to. But I still love being involved in sport and in fact they were great years when the kids were growing up to be involved, whether you were coaching, managing sporting teams, football, basketball, cricket, whatever it might be, was sort of an extension. Hopefully not extending to being the ugly parent living vicariously through your kids, but being involved in it is fantastic.

Janelle: That’s great. So I want to move onto this sense of fairness, Tony, that you really have and you’ve always said the sense of fairness and getting a fair go was super important to you, even as a child. Just interested in where that comes from? You know, why do you think that that’s just so deeply inherent in you and important to you?

Tony: Yeah, and I don’t think I ever realised that I thought it was important, perhaps until the last three or four years. I think there’s an element I was born that way. But I think that nature piece was nurtured by my mum in particular. And the examples I can think back, which are sort of become my realisation was in junior sport where you’ve got kids of such varying will, skill and it became very easy for those that had the will and skill to dominate for those that didn’t have the will, or had the will but not the skill to be really left out, and that never felt right to me and I - but at the same time, my mum, if I was responsible for determining who’d bat or bowl, if it was a game of cricket, mum would always, I guess, be that little cricket on my shoulder, Jiminy Cricket on the shoulder, saying “little Billie or little Johnnie didn’t get a go last week, why don’t they get a go this week”. And so I guess it’s always just felt like the right thing to do for me or perhaps the other side, excluding people and not giving them a chance, hasn’t felt like the right thing. It’s felt the wrong thing for me.

Janelle: It’s such an important attribute to not just be, well, one to be aware and then to have the empathy for the experience of others around you, so I think that is an important - is certainly an important one. Now I think, you know, you’ve been with the firm for 31 years now. You’ve been a partner for 21 of those years. The organisation that you joined 30 odd years ago, and indeed the job market that you were in, was vastly different. You know, we know that work styles have changed, the physical workplace has changed. We know that worker demographics have changed, particularly now that we’ve got four generations side by side. We also know that we’ve got this, you know, exploding exponential technology that’s happening around us. If you think about it, how have you managed to keep on top of that, stay evolving, stay relevant and lead people through it?

Tony: I mean 31 years you mention, it’s sort of crazy and scary and its almost, at this point, almost feels embarrassing when you talk to young people coming through the organisation, maybe they’re 21, 22, 23 and they ask how long you’ve been with the firm and you respond with a number with a 3 in front of it. In fact, I try and duck the question now because maybe they think that I couldn’t find another job. But I always say “no one else will have me”. But the key is that things have changed so dramatically over the period and perhaps you don’t realise ‘til a bit of the boiling frog syndrome, unless you sit back and think of the change, and the obvious one is technology, and when I started there were no laptops, there were no mobile phones. Fax machines were emerging and they were so much better than telex machines to use.

Janelle: Telex! OK.

Tony: Telex machines, yeah. And then I guess some of the office workplace was different. You aspired to be a manager so you could get an office and then you inspired to be a partner because then you get a bigger office. Well, that all went out the door 15 years when we moved to open plan and activity-based working and that was absolutely the right progression for society and for our business to go. I think the attitude was very different. When I started you were quite happy to be told what to do and how to do it and you just got on a did it. No consideration, I was going to say very little consideration but no consideration of the why, or the purpose of what we were doing. So that’s now very different when our people really demand to know the purpose or the why of their work and they want to understand that that’s aligned to society and community goals, environment etc. So, there’s been some, you know, massive changes as you’ve highlighted. Clients, client related work is tougher. The work is more technical, its more complex. The sort of the parts of the practice I’m in, its more regulated. Clients expect more, they demand deliverables faster and cheaper. And then you touched on the sort of leadership roles. You know, we’ve got four different generations. We’ve got baby boomers, Gen X, Gen Y and Gen Z. I actually stand back and you start to see, I think, some virtuous circles or some circles occurring in that place but that’s been complex. It seems to me years ago when you detect perhaps a morale issue or an engagement issue, it was all about throw some drinks on a Friday night or a big lunch on a Friday and all was well. It’s not as easy as that now because progression, the great progress we’ve made on diversity and inclusion means that one simple solution isn’t enough and isn’t the right way to go.

Janelle: And also recognising different styles and preferences. You know, alcohol ain’t going to cut it for some people who don’t feel at all comfortable in those environments. Things that we had available to us before or maybe very simplistic blunt instruments, you know, much more sophisticated now.
Tony: Just that we’re so much more aware of being inclusive and as you touched on some of the drink session on Friday, it would probably never appeal to everyone, but certainly doesn’t appeal to everyone now. And then, you know, from the CEO or leadership roles, I’m sure it wasn’t easy to be a CEO in years gone by but it does seem far more complex now, and I couldn’t have envisaged six years ago the issues that we would be dealing with. You know, I’ve touched on purpose, but driving and creating a diverse work force, but an inclusive workplace, and that goes to a safe workplace. Me Too movement, probably in the last three or four years. You know, we’ve needed to respond in that environment. Marriage equality was probably five/six years ago and you know I touched on climate environmental issues remain at the forefront so that’s a lot different to what it was.

Janelle: It certainly is. I think that expectation of activism from a CEO is completely new. There used to be very, very clear boundaries between, you know, what happens in the workplace versus what happens at home or what's the government to solve. Those lines are incredibly blurred now. Have - when you think about the Me Too movement, when you think about climate change, when you think about issues where you are expected to exercise a voice, how have you navigated that, made peace with those things? Maybe, you know, tested some of those things with your teenage kids?

Tony: And I think it does link back to purpose. That the - I’ve descried that people do want to understand the why now. So I think they do want their leaders to be visible and aligned with their purpose and certainly not ducking issues. And so for me in considering these and often you come to deal with these issues and you’re not expert in the technical client issue you’ve either got a basis or you know where to go. So, I guess my philosophy has been you’ve got to lean into the issues. You’ve got to listen and then do something about it. In the knowledge that what you choose to do may not be perfect, it may not be well received by everyone but I think the, you know, the worser evil is to not do anything. And so I do consult with people and try and consult widely, remembering that you want to get to action fairly quickly. Marriage equality was one where I did consult with my kids. Sunday night dinner is our normal get together and forum and we all talk about our week that’s passed or our week that’s coming, and one was around marriage equality and the kids just looked at me and sort of said “duh, Dad, you know get on with it”. In that case, I felt we were making a decision for not just the current people of EY but the future people -

Janelle: Future generations.

Tony: - who join EY. And the impact is, you know, on that issue and also support of cultural diversity, the impact is far greater than you expect it to be and wider than you expect it to be. You know, it wasn’t just the LGBTI community that saw EY make a stand in that regard, but we were seen to be an inclusive workplace and so therefore those that wanted to work in an inclusive workplace, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, cultural ethnicity etc., you know, saw that EY was an inclusive and safe workplace to be and aligned - so it aligned with probably with my fairness of opportunity piece. It aligned with building a better working world.

Janelle: That’s great. So, Tony, you talked about these virtuous cycles that you’re seeing and the generations coming in. Interested in knowing a bit more about that. What are you seeing? Is it history repeating itself or is there some sort of reminiscence of something for you when you look at that?

Tony: Yeah. I guess when I think back to baby boomer times, which I’m after baby boomer I might add, but I suspect I’ve got a lot of baby boomer attributes and that was a little bit around, and I don’t want to stereotype here, but it was you work hard, you get a job dah dah dah dah dah. Whereas we’ve moved then through Gen X which I am, to GenY and I guess GenY we all saw as the work/life balance, not interested in promotion, pay but you know, aholistic view. And now what we’re starting to see is with Gen Z, actually a desire and their parents - they may have seen their parents go through the global financial crisis, for example, saying actually I do want stability, I do want promotion, I actually want to buy a house. And to me some of those attributes are very baby boomer in style. They’re not the same as but they’re similar, those attributes. So, it just shows, I guess, why I call it the cycle or circles, it’s probably cycles. There’s elements of where we’re going back to where we were.

Janelle: It’s interesting.

Tony: So, you know, the challenge as we see in our organisation is you’ve got baby boomer, Gen X, Gen Y and Gen Z attributes but they all don’t - there’s not a signoff date for one or for the other and there’s not one here. So it’s – and I find it intriguing. You know, at the heart of what I guess makes me tick and excited, is understanding what makes me tick and what makes the organisation tick and the organisation is the aggregation of individuals. So it’s something that I enjoy thinking about. It’s a challenge but I enjoy thinking about.

Janelle: It’s something that does bear thinking about and I’m sure that example of, you know, what people are seeking now is a really good one. And I think the other part of that equation that makes it just that bit more complex is the fact that humans are humans and they’re not going to be put into any kind of bucket. There’s fluidity there in what you want so, you know, a Gen Xer is going say “well I want work/life balance and purpose as well. Like that was never things that I didn’t want. I just didn’t think that they were available to me”. So, we’re all sort of infecting each other with the different things that each generation brings in and learning from each other. So that adds more a challenge and more excitement, I guess, to figuring out human beings.

Tony: And often, you know, we’ve got this challenge about automation, AI, which sort of says the robots run the world and as, you know, my views are that we must remain human centred and humans will stay important. But so many elements of that are driving bespoke tailormade answers, whether you think of customer segmentation and when we’re dealing with and managing. developing, inspiring, motivating people, it’s got to be on a bespoke basis. You can’t put them in boxes and think, well that will work for that group of people. It’s got to be very much a tailored approach.

Janelle: Yeah, absolutely. You also talked about how our clients are changing. So you’ve got all of this going on. Clearly our clients, you know, which span private sector, government, mid-market, big end of town, they have also been grappling with all these kind of changes around them. We have had the profiles of their workforce have changed, they’ve got more consultants in there, there’s much more sophistication to the way that they use services. Tell me a bit about how you’ve had to lead our business to change the way that we used to operate before and evolve to something that is more relevant and provides more value in an environment that’s, you know, consumer sentiment is rapidly shifting what’s expected of us.

Tony: In some ways I think we’re fortunate that we are a people driven and a client driven business and so clients pull us to change and we can push but to be honest, the most powerful message is when your clients are pulling you to change and asking for different solutions, different services than what we provided so certainly automation AI, data analytics, cyber, climate change and sustainability services were not something that we were being asked for. But because of the client demand we have invested and grown and built great capability in those areas. And then it’s also the way you deliver the results. You know, digital delivery is imperative. If you’re seen to be antiquated in delivering a, I don’t know, I think not all the way back but a PowerPoint document or beyond that, a Word document, it just doesn’t cut the mustard any more. So, I guess I’ve been - the burning platform exists in satisfying our client needs and that makes it easier, I won’t say easy, but it makes it easier to affect change within EY.

Janelle: Yeah, and I think when you’re coupling that burning platform with the burning ambition which has been purpose for us, you know, setting that north star, those two things coming together is really, really a perfect recipe for change.

Tony: Yep, yep agree.

Janelle: I want to go back to an analogy that you used just a moment ago around the boiling frog. You know, it’s got a little bit of a sombre tone to it, right, when you think about the boiling frog analogy? But I think its quiet relevant in this time of the way that change is happening and as the leader of very large organisation, as a leader of a partnership no less, you know I think we have people and a lot of, as humans, feel susceptible to not recognising how much is happening around us. That we might be in that boiling water. So how do you help people realise that the water is hot and it’s getting hotter and we need to keep evolving, keep adapting, accepting it, leading it? How do you make sure that we don’t become that boiling frog as an organisation?

Tony: Yeah. I think having the discussion is an important part of the puzzle. In some ways history does repeat and the same elements that were important 30 years ago are important now, albeit that the speed is so much greater. And I know I’ve shared with you previously, I was so fortunate one of my first bosses, they were very, very old at the time, aged about 30, a senior manager -

Janelle: Oh ancient!

Tony: - ancient, suggested to me that it was important to do my CV and I should do it every six months. I thought I was going to have the shortest career at EY ever, but really what he was emphasising was the importance of learning and the proxy was adding something into your CV. If you couldn’t add something to your CV for the last six months and couldn’t foresee that you were going to add something to your CV in the next six months, make a change. And I guess I’ve always adopted that philosophy and it’s probably - it’s even more true now about planning and thinking ahead around what are you learning, are you learning something, are you adapting, are you changing? And I think the discussion and the awareness is focussed on encouraging people to lean into change. The worst thing you can do is lean out and not accept it, not embrace it, and so come up with your own plan - put something new on your CV for the last six months and the new six months which is helping you change and transform to the new world.

Janelle: And I can attest to – I get to be on the road with you a fair bit, Tony, and I know how consistent you are with that advice to people and I know that you also do update your - you’ve got your notebook that you update so if, you know, I’m no accountant but 31 years, if you do that twice a year, you’re going to have at least 62 entries in there. If you sort of, would have metaphorically flicked back on that notebook - you’re actually reaching for the notebook right now, real time, here it is, and you think back to some of those key changes and those reflections and those updates to the CV every six months, what would be some standouts for you?

Tony: They’re learnings. I call them my rules but they’re not really rules, they’re just principles and things I like looking back on every now and again to help you with your decision making. So, they’re a little bit random in lots of ways but they include being comfortable with ambiguity, that the world isn’t black or white, that the answer is often – in fact I always say always in between. People repeat it back to me and say, “I remember, Tony, when you said the answer is somewhere in the middle” and I say “No, no the answer is not in the middle, its somewhere in-between”. I mean when I was working through the global financial crisis with financial institutions, a key learning there was the reality and the common currents of group think. At that stage the world, and particularly financial institutions, were dealing with unseen problems never seen before and we didn’t quite - we didn’t - no one knew what the impact was going to be of some of these products that had been designed. And I recall just the ebb and flow where the uncertainty but a group of people would get together, one person would make a suggestion and then everyone piled on and thought that is the answer because I guess we’re all looking for an answer, we’re all looking for certainty. So, we’ll pile onto that answer. And then that would continue to be the case for two or three weeks, or even maybe less because the world was changing pretty quickly. You’d bring a new person into the team with different experiences and they’d say “No, the answer isn’t that direction, it’s actually the opposite direction” and immediately people would pile on the other way. So I guess it’s been a, you know, that was just a clear learning, a rule just to be conscious of group think. And you refer to consultations before. I do consult widely but I deliberately try and consult with people that will give me - I know will give me a different answer to the one - I know I can go to certain people, whether they’re rational or irrational, and get the same answer that I may have, but the power of going to somewhere different and I learnt that - in fact the power of the partnership is such diversity of thought and I could go to different partners on a problem to just give me the opposite view and then I can form my own view but at least I’ve heard what the opposite argument is going to be. So, you know, there’s other things I have in my rules around relationships which is always “Never back people into a corner”, “Always give people a way out”. The importance of understanding your own leadership attributes and so you work through what they are for you and for me, that’s being about being accessible, authentic and fair.

Janelle: Yep. I thought that was going to be something starting with “a” because you do like a three word pneumonic.

Tony: And I do love a 3 R piece. I think it was – that might have come from early training on when you were speaking to audiences, it was the 1, 2, 3. It was “Tell them what you are going to tell them, tell them and then tell them what you told them”. So, yeah 3s works very easy for a simple mind like mine.

Janelle: So, you know, I just want to pick up on that theme of diversity of thinking and I guess I’ve been the beneficiary of your active seeking out of diverse points of view. One of the big changes that you were actually in control of and you made happen was the appointment of a 50:50 gender represented executive leadership team. How did that come about and what were some of the impacts? What surprised you, what didn’t surprise you, you know, as a result of that quite fundamental change in the profile of the leadership team?

Tony: Yeah. I guess it’s probably quite a journey to get to that point. One is becoming aware of the issue and that’s it’s not fair, it’s not right, it didn’t sit well with fairness of opportunity. I think setting targets and - but it’s got to be merit based and you can do far more damage to an organisation and to individuals if you’re not merit based in the way you go about it. But, you know, discussions that you and I have had and I’ve had with others, sometimes it was difficult to get women to step up to take a role, notwithstanding that they had all the ability, the energy, all the capability required, a little bit of that, you know, it’s a truism - men, if they’ve got four out of eight attributes for a job think they’re a shoe in.

Janelle: Yep, I was going to be a little less generous, but yes.

Tony: Yeah, well you can be. But women believe they need eight out of the eight attributes before they even put their hand up. And so it took some work over a period of time but having a target to aim for with 50% of the leadership team was important and some good management in there but there was some good luck in there that things came together and we were able to do it. And then the difference it brings to the team. The different discussions that you have, I think they’re more human discussions which is really, I think, more important today than it was 20, 30 years ago. I think there’s more - just bringing the lens for a start of - and we’re talking about women, we could go to cultural diversity as well, to discussions I think makes a – important. So I’ve only seen upside from having a better gender based team. Now we’ve got to continue that journey to have, you know, even more, I guess, inclusion - inclusive and diverse in their thinking.

Janelle: Yeah. I wonder, if I just sort of think about the concept of conscious bias and unconscious bias, you know, that’s quite an old term but really has only just come into mainstream discussions probably in the last ten years. Would you be willing to share one of your own sort of unconscious biases, because we’re all on a journey here, Tony. Is there something that you discovered about yourself around unconscious bias that you’ve had to actively address?

Tony: I’ll stop at sharing one perhaps Janelle. I’ve been fortunate to participate in, I guess, a lot of formal training over the years, whether that be inclusive leadership, whether it be specifically around unconscious bias or conscious bias and unconscious bias for training. I guess one of my reflections was, I recall doing MBA and it was put to the class that there is no such thing as politics in organisations to which people sort of reeled in their seats and said “You obviously haven’t worked in my organisation”. But the message was that there’s not politics, there’s formal systems and informal systems and if you want to be successful as a manager/leader in an organisation, you need to know how to work the formal systems and the informal systems. And so that kind of made good sense to me but I guess my - the next step of thinking for me was a lot how do you learn about informal systems? And it’s often around the Friday – or going back to days gone by, it was the Friday night drinks, it was the long lunch, it was the more social occasions where you’d be spending with more senior people in the organisation.

Janelle: The space in between, isn’t it?

Tony: Yeah, and so - but when I reflected, there were so many of those events – the Friday night drinks, the long lunch, which were very male dominated and I don’t think it was ever deliberate to say women are not invited - maybe there were cases of that - but it was kind of just didn’t happen, it just perhaps women had caring responsibilities. For whatever the reason, my realisation was that women were missing out on the opportunity to learn what were the informal systems of the organisation. So I guess and I was part of that. I was, again I don’t think I was being deliberate in it but I was certainly being subconscious or unconscious in excluding women from some of those opportunities to learn about informal systems. And so you adjust your behaviour and so it becomes perfect but you do adjust your behaviour to create more opportunities for everyone to get a fair go, so that they’ve got the same basis for their careers going forward.

Janelle: So if you were to sort of - and we have been doing a fair bit of reflecting over your time - what are you most proud of? And I’m sure there’s many but a few things that really stand out as, you know, these are the legacies that you feel you’re be leaving behind?

Tony: Yeah and I’m not sure, perhaps one was sort of planned and one wasn’t planned. I felt our capability, our skills were absolutely fantastic but we could be a little bit more bold and confident in the way we go about it. So, its work that’s not finished but I think we’re a more bold and confident organisation than what we were previously and you’ve played a role in helping with that. I think we’re more agile. So, the mantra for me has been about us being more agile, bold and confident and I feel we’ve made progress in that area. And the other one that I don’t think I set out deliberately but I think we are a more diverse, inclusive and safe workplace than what we were five years ago and that’s come about, partly being driven or pushed by some of those external -

Janelle: And being bold and confident as well to take positions on things that you wouldn’t have before.

Tony: Yeah, that’s - actually I hadn’t joined the two of them together, but you’re right. It comes back to leaning into issues. We talked about marriage equality but, you know, the Me Too movement, we did take the step to run awareness campaigns in all our offices, and pretty frank and candid discussions and then to be more visible that we’re, well, firstly to be very overt that poor workplace behaviour would not be tolerated. And then in cases, thankfully rarely where it does occur, that its acted upon and that the actions from that were visible because in too many cases in years gone by, there wasn’t transparency or visibility of what to occur. In too many cases, the victim was made to feel like the guilty party. So, all those things come together and I think, yeah, we had to lean into it which was the bold and confident piece. So, they’re the two – agile, bold and confident that are more diverse and inclusive and safe workplace.

Janelle: And I think, you know, we took - we hear people talking about diversity and inclusiveness and I’m of the real conviction that it’s actually the inclusiveness that drives diversity, not the other way around. And so it’s probably no surprise that we have much more diversity because we focus so much, and you particularly, have really focussed on that inclusion side of the equation. So not to bring the note down a bit, but I guess the reverse question also for you, Tony. You know, if you were to have your time over, is there anything that you would do differently?

Tony: I said I’m glass half full so I’ll stay positive.

Janelle: So this is going to be a struggle for you, isn’t it?

Tony: Yeah, it is going to be a struggle. But no, I’m comfortable with the path that we’ve taken but I think what you do is you do the same thing but perhaps faster and more of it. So, I refer to leaning in, lean in more. Listen, listen perhaps engage in discussions where you can listen earlier and maybe when the listening piece, the issues seem relatively small, don’t wait until they get louder and then the actions you’d go quicker and maybe challenge yourself, go bolder. So …

Janelle: You could have another three word thing happening. You could have a lean-in, listen-in and lead. How about that? Put that in your notebook.

Tony: Now I love the 3 Ls there, because you know I’ve got the 3 Es, the 3 Rs, the 3 Ls , no, that’s good, thank you.

Janelle: Oh I know, I know. Welcome.

Tony: Maybe that’s a path to my book on - I’ll just have 26 chapters, 3 As, 3 Bs, 3 Cs.

Janelle: My whole goal is get into that book, so yeah, to have influenced it. So, life isn’t always perfect, Tony, as much as we might like to believe that it could be and would be, but it’s not all cotton candy and roses. What happens when the proverbial “shit hits the fan”? What do you do? How do you cope? Who do you turn to? Maybe you could think of a specific example.

Tony: There’s probably been more surprises, I’ll call them, than what I expected and I think more surprises to most businesses in these last four or five years than what there has been in the years preceding. You know, it’s a stressful time. You have at your heart the decisions you make, the reputation of the firm, the partners, the people within it, can be hanging on how you respond or what decisions that you make. So, it’s something that you take very seriously. I guess the first piece is not to panic. It’s very easy - you’ve generally got lots of people in your organisation who are willing to do that for you.

Janelle: I’ve got that covered for you!

Tony: Yeah! The three parts that I have to it are you’ve got to communicate, you’ve got to - depending on the nature of the issues - there’s got to be some empathy there, and then you set a vision. Actually I remember that from the way Anna Bligh, as Queensland Premier, dealt with the Queensland floods many years ago and I remember just thinking she did a brilliant job and so I’ve taken those three from that situation. Then there’s a piece, you do need to keep some balance in it goes to this calmness piece. You have to keep in the back of your mind that you can only control what you can control. And I guess the other piece to that is the sun will come up next day. No matter how bad things might seem, there are always worse things that have occurred or could occur. And I do, and certainly not -

Janelle: It’s that glass half full thinking coming back in.

Tony: - yeah it is. It’s not obfuscation, can’t say that word, maybe it’s language and that word but -

Janelle: Just emphasise the first syllable, you’ll be right.

Tony: - yeah “Ob”, yeah good, got it. But so I do think there’s a bit where you’ve got to stand back and say whilst you might be stressed about the decision you’re about to make, it’s not the end of the world and I can only do what I can do, because if you don’t accept that, then I think you’ll drive yourself crazy.

Janelle: Would drive you crazy. I get to work with you and I know how amiable a person you are. I think, you know, it’s just one of the beautiful attributes about you but how does that sort of attribute, does that feel conflicted at times when you know you can’t please all the people all the time? You know that there will be times where you would have let some people down and what they might have wanted. How do you make personal peace with that given your style, your tendency towards that?

Tony: Yeah. Maybe there is a third piece in that you accept you’re not going to keep everyone happy. So, I think you learn that over time. Probably 25 years ago, that amiable element would have been, well perhaps not more pervasive, but the need for approval would have been greater. When I think over time experience it, you know a logical way to work through things, you know what's the right answer, you’ve accepted that you can’t keep everyone happy, you’ve accepted that you can’t control everything, you’ve accepted that the sun will come up tomorrow. So, I think it’s not what you do, it’s how you go about it. So providing you treat people with respect and it can be communications so people know that they have been consulted on matters, you empathise and note that they may not agree, that their point of view is valid but on this occasion we won’t be going that way and it’s got to sit with making decision and getting on with things.

Janelle: And I’d imagine going home each day to your family and seeing your kids and talking to your wife is also a great leveller as well and put some perspective on where this sits in the whole scheme of things?

Tony: Yeah, I mean I’m not sure I do that as well as I - sorry, I’m not sure I leave things in the office and not take them home. I do recall back in 2008, when your kids knew what a collateralised debt obligation was. They knew what a CDO was, that it was a collateralised debt obligation and you think, maybe I’m talking a little too much work at home. But you’re right. I think to have a break and get home and be conscious that you need to do something else, even though you need to be focussed on being present at home. Notwithstanding, you know I’m definitely not perfect at that. It does provide that perspective.

Janelle: So perhaps just, you know, thinking about with change happening so quickly, what are your predictions for society and for business over the next few years?

Tony: Yeah, I don’t have a crystal ball and five years ago you would have made some bets and you would have got some of them right and some of them wrong. The speed is going to continue with at the exponential rate that we’ve seen. I think being human centred is still going to retain and, you know, I’m not of the view that automation and robots will take out in any way the importance from people in organisations relationships, in organisations. So, you know the bit of the test there is you’ve got to keep focussed on people and relationships. So, the speed will continue. I don’t know what the answer will be, but I would say that, you know, leaning in, listening and acting upon it are still going to be the keys to adjusting and being successful.

Janelle: And for you personally, Tony, what do you see for yourself in the next five years?

Tony: Well I won’t be in this role in -

Janelle: Wait, what!?

Tony: No, breaking news! No, I won’t be in this role in five years’ time but - so I really want to keep learning, you know sticking to that fundamental that was - I was fortunately presented with 30-odd years ago about adding something to your CV every six months. And, you know, I think variety is a bit of the spice of life and change and a bit of spontaneity, so you know, something routine wouldn’t appeal to me but I hope I’m adding something to my CV every six months.

Janelle: Awesome, awesome. So, I want to ask you a rapid three questions, Tony, just to warm up a bit before we get into the heavier stuff and get us to know you a little bit better. What would be a misconception that most people have about you?

Tony: I think it could be that insistent one, that how painful I find it for things not to get done and for things on a to-do list not to be completed.

Janelle: I definitely can’t imagine that there are many people at EY that would call you a procrastinator. If anyone has the pleasure of looking at your empty inbox every single day, you are meticulous about keeping that thing up to date. What about guilty pleasures, and let’s keep it, you know, PG? What’s one of your guilty pleasures?

Tony: Look, I suspect it would have to come back to food and/or wine or maybe it’s the “and”, food and wine. And so, look, it’d be definitely a steak at my favourite steak place with a glass of red and good friends around.

Janelle: OK. And finally, we can’t all be great at everything and that might even extend to you. So, what would be one thing that you’re pretty hopeless at, no matter how hard you’ve given it a red hot go?

Tony: Yeah, it would be languages, other than English. It’s a long-term issue. I think it goes back to school years where I did French for a couple of years but it’s fair to say the kids weren’t all that well behaved in class, so every lesson we were required to march around the school yard singing the French national anthem which this day is probably the only French that I know. But when travelling with the family now, and regardless of the language, Spanish, Italian, I just butcher it. And I think it’s because I’m locked into the emphasis on the first syllable of a word, which doesn’t quite work in other languages.

Janelle: Hmm and interesting tech-nique.

Tony: Yes, well it causes all sorts of mirth for my wife and my kids who are talented, or far more skilful in the area of languages than my pretty hopeless state.

Janelle: You know I feel incredibly tempted to get you to sing the French anthem but I do want people to keep listening to the podcast so I think I’ll spare us all.

Tony: You display very good judgement Janelle.

Janelle: Thank you. So I want to wrap up here, Tony, and thank you so much for your time. I think from - some key takeaways for me apart from your love of the pneumonics here, you are clearly someone who leads change from the human side. You’ve put humans at the centre, with authenticity, accessibility, curiosity and obviously that inherent sense of fairness. I can attest to how deeply you believe in that updating your CV every six months and no doubt, you’re going to be continually doing that, we’ll talk about that whole question later. It’s a practice that’s truly enabled you to stay relevant. It’s truly enabled you to lead change over the 30 years with us here at EY and it’s been an incredibly insightful interview today. Thank you so much for your time, Tony.

Tony: Thanks Janelle.

End tape