Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Steven Worrall

Intro: Change happens how we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight in to how senior business leaders face change. The good, the bad, and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: This podcast series ‘Change Happens’ is a conversation with senior business leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. When we set out creating the podcast about how we cope, deal and work through change we didn’t expect it to be amid the biggest worldwide change in modern history – COVID-19. COVID-19 has resulted in a whole of population quickly pivoting to remote working and following social distancing norms in the new normal.

Those businesses that have good technology and staff were used to using remotely were able to quickly pivot and ensure speed and productivity were not impacted to the same extent by these sudden changes and as we’ve moved through the last few months many employers are seeing benefits in their workforces being able to work flexibly – leading to the question:

What will the return to the office look like in a post-COVID world?

With the right technology many nay-sayers are now on board that you can really do your job from anywhere. With that context in mind I invited Managing Director of Microsoft Australia – Steven Worrall to join me. When you think of Microsoft maybe you think about a Word document, maybe you think about PowerPoint, maybe you think about Microsoft Teams?

Steve is all about working collectively and addressing the inequities of society and he definitely sees tech plus an empathic approach led by true listening as the key to enabling that. He opens up about some personal experiences he faced and how they’ve formed the kind of person that he is and the kind of leader that he continues to be. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Jenelle: Hi Steve, welcome to the ‘Change Happens’ Podcast. How are you going during this time?

Steve: I’m going very well Jenelle. It’s great to join you and thanks for the invitation.

Jenelle: My pleasure. I feel like asking you the question ‘How you are going during this time?’ can be quite a loaded question. Let’s start with the situation we find ourselves in with COVID-19. We’ve all had to face into social distancing. You and I aren’t in the same room as a result of that. I think one of the things with social distancing is that we have had to change the way that we embrace technology, certainly to keep connected with others personally and professionally.

How have you seen this playing out? Has there been things that you’ve seen that’s surprised you?

Steve: For sure. I think as a member of the tech industry I’ve been privileged to be in a front row seat if you like because a lot of what we are seeing over the last little while has been a more rapid adoption of technology to facilitate working from home. To help teams continue to do the work that they’re doing and in many cases we are first responders with hospitals and others to keep critical services operating to support the community.

For many organisations across just about every part of the Australian economy people realising that technology can play an increasingly important role. Then I think on a personal side we’ve all been impacted very directly by the stories around us in our community and clearly also around the world amongst all of the bad news of the pandemic and the impacts that it has had and the tragic consequences.

There has also been the sense that people are being drawn together in a way I think we’ve all noticed both at work and our personal lives. For that, I think we can all be thankful because there are some things there that we want to hold onto afterwards as well.

Jenelle: Yeah absolutely there is something that’s there though. Almost a rallying war cry here when we find ourselves in a situation of adversity and change that we’re all in. I totally agree with you.

You’ve certainly got a reputation for being one who gets out a lot to see your broader team in all the offices, how are you managing to sustain a very personal connection with your employees during this time? How well are you finding that online connection serving you?

Steve: Again because we’re coming out of the tech industry we’re very fortunate because a lot of the work from home technology is in the way of working remotely is something that has been part and parcel of the experience at Microsoft and many businesses more broadly for that matter.

The idea that work is a thing you do not a place that you go. With that said we’ve acknowledged the fact that we’re not in the office any longer and that personal contact isn’t there. Like many clients and partners that we work with we’re having more frequent engagement with each other. So more regular team meetings.

What’s been interesting and back to your first question – we’re seeing higher levels of engagement in many of those than what we would have seen in the pre-pandemic world, which is a really interesting reflection of how technology can facilitate connection, but also that human need at the moment that we see all around us from more connection with each other and technology has a role to play there.

Jenelle: I think it does. It’s interesting around the level of engagement that it’s facilitating the conscious ‘checking-in’ that people are doing and as you say more and more of those meetings. What are your thoughts around the extent to which this becomes a ‘new normal’?

I can see why we are all doing it consciously now – it’s front of our minds and we’re really consciously doing that, but as we move back into some kind of ‘normal’ and I say that in inverted comma’s, do you think we’re still going to be sustaining that kind of level of diligence in checking in and frequency of contact?

Steve: I hope so. I also think that what we will realise is that whether it’s client engagements, getting unseen partners, or then just the reality of managing a business around the country where you feel like you need to be in different locations to connect with your team. I think what we’ve all learned through this period is that the technology in connecting more frequently – using the technology can be really, really effective in making people feel a part of the team and that they’re up to speed and that they’re part of that community. There are lots of lessons out of this for us in regards to using the technology more often which as a business that uses it all the time, we’ve found ways in which we can do things better.

Jenelle: It strikes me as an incredible opportunity in here for all of us but I’m thinking from your perspective as somebody who leads an organisation that sells technology where in the past you might have had to really sell the need and the opportunity that technology can afford. Now the world is seeing it, businesses across industries are seeing it. If you don’t need to spend as much time selling the idea of the virtue of it, do you think that this opens up new possibilities for you, and for your organisation and the tech industry at large to go to places that might have been off the table because you had to convince of the need in the first place?

Steve: Without a doubt. A lot of what we’ve seen in the last couple of months has been the rapid adoption of some basic technology that allows you to work from home. Whether that’s video conference, audio chat, sharing files and the like, that’s pretty foundational. But to be fair many organisations across Australia weren’t doing that well and have rapidly moved to that environment. That’s important because it gives you the platform or the framework on which you can then do things that really do have high consequence and have a big impact in your business where you can start sharing ideas more rapidly around team members in different parts of the country, where you insisted on everyone flying into your location.

As a tech business we still clearly value face-to-face interaction that will never change but the assumption that we might have made in the past that it was essential for us to do that, around the country and with particular communities. When we’ve looked back now and we go and look at our diary and look at a calendar for argument sake of the year’s activities, there are plenty of things there that we will in the post-COVID world replace with the digital version because we know it will give us a better outcome and

Jenelle: Broader reach.

Steve: Yeah if that’s our experience I’m certain that’s going to be a similar experience for all our customers and partners across the country.

Jenelle: Speaking of your customers and partners, you’re responsible for the overall business in Australia. You’ve got 11,000 partner network and individual software vendors that sell or build on a Microsoft platform.

Based on the breadth of interactions that you have across the business community, what are you seeing in the way of business leadership during this time? What are you seeing that leaders can be doing to safeguard and foster talent during this crisis?

Steve: The first thought is it’s more important perhaps now than ever and any business talent is the first, the second, the third and the forth priority if you will on the list of things you need to get right. I think every business leader is aware of that challenge in their context.

I think in today’s environment then it’s even more important in terms of connection and again whether that’s a digital connection or some socially distant in person connection but they are more important today than ever.

Perhaps Jenelle it’s back to a very basic concept around leadership – during a period of uncertainty when the world feels like it’s being reordered literally in front of your eyes, and you open a newspaper or you watch the news services at night and you wonder where things are heading. Especially now with some of the more recent developments in the United States. Having great leadership or having a focus on leadership really differentiates how well any business gets through a period of disruption. That’s a direct reflection of the talent you have in your organisation and very obviously a massive focus for every business and as I said most particularly right now.

Jenelle: How have you been getting that kind of appreciation of the diversity and the different segmentations in your business. You’ve got one voice to your organisation. How do you make sure that it resonates across so many different employee types, circumstances, preferences and experiences?

Steve: This is something that I’m always thinking about because I’m certain that we don’t always get it right. I don’t get it right all the time and I’m sure my leadership team we don’t get it right all the time. We’ve used a variety of techniques. I mentioned earlier that we have weekly calls with our people leaders across the country. The most important relationship in our business is the one between every employee and their manager. Quite obviously that’s an important function of communication, a channel if you like, and we get together not just for me to share information but importantly for me and the leadership team to hear what’s on the minds of our teams across the country.

Obviously the all hands calls that we have and the forum that we set up because they’re not just calls there is an ongoing electronic communication through our notice boards and online chat and the like through the platforms that we use, that allow us to have an ongoing dialogue with teams about what their experience is day-to-day. Then there is a variety of other listening techniques that we use whether there surveys and polls or the like, but other techniques that we over indexed on during this period to simply ensure that we are listening clearly, understanding what’s happening in our teams and around the community and then using that input to obviously respond in an appropriate and empathetic way.

Jenelle: That’s fantastic and it’s so great to hear your level of consciousness, awareness and sensitivity to that. That’s great.

We’ve been talking about the future of work Steve for years, and many of us have about the shifting drivers around the impact of technology like IA and automation has on the nature of work, the impact on workers, the implications for workplaces, it feels like overnight as we’ve been talking about as a result of COVID-19, we’ve seen that ‘future of work’ and I am putting inverted commas around that now because it’s really a lived reality for us now.

I’m wondering what you think might be able to do now in that frame of work, worker, workplace that we might not have otherwise been able to do, at least not for a number of years’ time. Is there anything that comes to mind for you as the opportunity to seize?

Steve: What does the future look like? As I was saying earlier I think we’ve now got this appreciation of how the infrastructure and the NBN is obviously part of that but the digital framework and the digital framework on which now businesses/communities can come together in all sorts of new ways. I think we’re about to see an explosion and an proliferation of ideas in businesses, in the Arts, in social contexts – how we get together with our friends that will use some of those basic technologies to extend and enrich our lives.

At the same time the risk is that those benefits will not be shared evenly and I think one of the big areas of focus for us all as a society here in Australia, in particular, is how do we use this moment to ensure we level the playing field? And we address the many inequities that still exist across our society and our community that have been laid bare through the pandemic. I think that’s a massive opportunity for us as a country.

Jenelle: Opportunity and also obligation I think as a society. Certainly one of the things that I’ve realised in speaking with you Steve over the last year or so is that interestingly for me anyway, you seem to be far less interested in talking about technology in a nut itself and what I found with you is that you are much more interested in talking about what technology allows us to solve when it comes to those societal problems or business problems.

Jenelle: To that end I know that Microsoft has been involved in fascinating partnerships and the technology has been used as a platform to solve some really critical issues. So at the risk of asking you a question which might be akin to ‘can you pick your favourite child?’.

What are some of the initiatives that you feel most excited about that you’re involved with?

Steve: There are many but the ones that stream to mind relate to some very simple uses of technology that can have profound impacts. One is a will application we’ve been working on with NSW Government to help reduce homelessness in the CBD. Homelessness is an affliction in our country as it is in many countries around the world and yet in many cases it’s just the absence of joined up systems to connect service providers with those who are either living or sleeping rough or those who are living on a friend’s couch or living in circumstances where they don’t feel safe to go home so they are then forced to go and seek shelter elsewhere. This application we built with the NSW Government is a very small example of when you join up systems and you connect service providers, it’s actually amazing the outcomes you can achieve in helping people rapidly connect with the relevant services in our community that are there to do just that. To take them off the streets and to provide them with the social services that are so essential. That’s a small but impactful example that we’re working on.

We work also with Crisis Support Organisations and not surprisingly these organisations lag in the use of technology. In many cases still depend upon the telephone, which was great technology back in 1960 or 1970 but in today’s digital world for crisis support services you need to have communication and a digital platform that connects with our community where they want to be connected. That’s social media, it’s all forms of digital communication. We’re working with a range of crisis support services to help improve the quality of their use of technology so that the important work that they do, all day, every day, is focused where it really matters which is helping people and not on trying to work out how to facilitate that connection in the first place.

Jenelle: Wow I know that there is a range of things there. Those issues are profound. You also have a partnership with Jawun where you collaborate with local indigenous leaders. I’m interested to find out more about that and how you balance respect, timing and the way you approach indigenous communities to make sure you’re not intrusive but offered genuine support in areas of need?

Steve: Jawun first of all is a wonderful organisation there are many people who are listening to these podcasts whose organisations are members of Jawun. We joined just a couple of years ago and been taking our first steps in our journey to contribute towards the process of reconciliation in country.

What I’ve learned over the last couple of years is this issue is far more complex than meets the eye. I had the privilege to go to Cape York and spend a couple of days in the communities in Cape York and the range of issues related to health, housing, obviously employment and many other issues that interrelate with the indigenous experience in remote communities were far more complex than I had ever appreciated.

Yet I think Jenelle that technology is intersecting with the world that we live in such a way today that it’s hard to imagine that technology can’t or won’t play an increasing role in the future, as it relates to indigenous affairs when you think about inequities in terms of education or health or incarceration rates, there are a multitude of ways in which again perhaps connecting government services more effectively. Perhaps simply through connecting communities more effectively and providing information that we can help to or start to make more progress in addressing some of the issues that government (to be fair) has worked very hard at and this has been an issue that obviously has been worked on for over many, many decades.

We at Microsoft believe that technology can be a facilitator and through whatever small contribution that we can make we intend to do just that.

Jenelle: Steve, look there are some pretty profound areas. Whether we are talking about homelessness, or indigenous communities and the challenges they face, I know that you are working heavily in a remote context now but have you had a chance to connect with some of the on-the-ground outcomes whether it’s the homelessness front or in indigenous communities.

Have you got any of those real life experiences that you’ve managed to experience?

Steve: With the first phase of the homelessness app that we worked on with the NSW Government. We participated in a survey of those sleeping rough in the CBD and through that first two day process of collating information and connecting those sleeping rough, we were able to take seven people off the streets of Sydney within a [19.34] period. That was a really powerful example of how technology – through simply connecting systems and service providers was able to provide identify the right service provider for those individuals.

In terms of the indigenous work, we’ve had a consequence of the visit to Cape York – we organised a session in Sydney where we brought indigenous women from around the country – 33 of them to come into the city to participate in a week’s emersion of technology with the intent of passing on skills that they could then take back to their communities to help with the formation of either new businesses or in local community projects that involved technology. What we found through that experience was the power of seeding, these are basic skills but very rapidly we found people from indigenous communities picked up the skills that they felt were most relevant for the community and the efforts they were involved in and were able to take those skills back and a network of people from Microsoft team and some of our partners that could be enlisted in helping them to then further some of those projects. I think in that case that really reinforced for us – one of the big things for us as a country which is this idea of skilling and how we invest in ourselves so that as our economy is reshaped through this period that we help our workforce pick up the new skills that are going to be so essential for whatever the future of Australia’s economy looks like.

Jenelle: Let’s just stay on that. I know you’ve been really candid about the need to champion the reskilling of the workforce and equipping people to succeed in the digital age. Talk about we have a role here to help our people do that. What does that look like? What can that help look like from governments or businesses?

Steve: I think it’s a combination quite clearly. I’ve spoken about this before. I think there is a real need for industry and government to collaborate more directly here. Not only in terms of funding that is so essential to help the workforce pivot and reskill but also through industry helping government to understand exactly where those future roles are likely to occur. There is a tighter collaboration needed. It’s awesome to see some of the announcements most recently from the government in relation to investing in skills programs at Microsoft and there are others in the IT industry and broader industries which are also pursuing significant investments that will help leverage some of the assets that we bring to the table.

We have an organisation called ‘LinkedIn’ that many will have heard of. It provides a wonderful array of data about the state of the workplace today but importantly also where we are seeing demand in terms of new jobs being created and the skills that are necessary to fill those jobs. Our next major skills announcement where we want to bring that data to bear to help Australia and for that matter many countries around the world pilot a way towards that future. I stress I don’t think it’s going to be solved by any one organisation I think this need for collaboration between industry and all participants with government is more essential today than ever.

Jenelle: Want to turn to purpose Steve. I know the purpose statement for Microsoft (which has been set at the global level) is to empower every person and every organisation on the planet to achieve more. I think it’s an inspiring and aspirational light to be sitting on the hill and I think you’ve given some really great examples there of how you are bringing that to life within your organisation and Australia. I’m interested in how that really grand and important purpose resonates and aligns with your personal purpose. How do you speak about your personal purpose in the context of Microsoft?

Steve: I think my personal purpose is perhaps most Australian of all which is we have a sense of collectivism in Australia in a sense of mateship and a sense of being in this all together. We’ve seen it again through the pandemic that not withstanding the many political debates that might be going on and the different groups and voices in the community, in times of stress or pressure we come together well.

My personal purpose working here at Microsoft aligns very directly with this idea that I have the privilege of leading this wonderful organisation in Australia that I want to make sure that we use it to address those imbalances and the inequities that might exist in our communities. Perhaps going back to the earlier theme about this moment where technology is now intersecting with business and life in ways that we’ve not seen in the past. It promises to provide a lot of the assistance and to fill in a lot of the gaps that might exist in how we address the homelessness issues across the country, or how we address inequities in regards to our indigenous community, or how we help crisis support centres provide a more effective service by connecting with people on the platforms that they want to interact on.

I think as I say I’m very fortunate because our CEO Satya has made it clear to all of us that rather than us see it we work for the company, Satya has famously flipped that around to say ‘Well imagine that Microsoft works for you’. What would you do with the company if it did work for you and how would you direct this business and this platform to achieve things that really matter?

That’s been one of the greatest satisfactions in having this role over the last couple of years and continuing to perform in it, that I have the opportunity to direct some of our activities to the areas I feel we can have that impact.

Jenelle: It’s a beautiful spin actually and it makes it much more of a servant leader kind of mentality that comes into the organisation. I love that.

I want to talk about your personal experience with change. As you know this podcast is called ‘Change Happens’ and what we know is that often it’s a result of personal and professional changes that may well happen by circumstance, it may be by design, that we see some really important growth opportunities and formative lessons for ourselves.

As you consider some of those moments of change in your life, I’m wondering can you share a couple of moments that perhaps come to mind for you and the kind of experience of change that you’ve had that has a defining role in who you are, and how you operate today?

Steve: I joined Microsoft six years ago and had spent many years at another other tech business prior to joining. There was a period of great change. Cultural change if you will going from one organisation to another, then also dealing with a very personal event in my life which was my father dealing with a serious health issues that ultimately ended in him passing away a couple of years later. My mind goes to that because that experience at the time was perhaps a combination of the most challenging personal and professional set of experiences and challenges that I’d had. It also I think, I hope, has made me more empathetic to the reality that… and it may go back to what we were talking about earlier with being connected with our teams, there are so many things that could be going on in anyone’s life related to their..

Jenelle: You never know what happens behind closed doors and what people are dealing with in life.

Steve: Absolutely so as simple as that sounds, and as obvious as that sounds, the impact on me during that period and my family and how we managed our way through that and how I tried to show up in a professional context during what was a really really tough time. One of the lessons I learned through that was always being incredibly mindful of what is going on in other people’s lives because that can be very informative quite obviously in regards to some of the signals that you might otherwise be receiving. It certainly helps you as leader I think to be a bit more attuned to how to adapt your leadership, and how to best provide what that person, or that team, or that organisation might need at that time.

Jenelle: I know that there are clearly lessons about how you might lead through that. I wonder about you, yourself as a human navigating those difficult times. What did you learn about you in there as you tried to balance the home front, the work front, and that you now take forward with you in navigating the day-to-day complexities of life?

Steve: There were many but the one that comes to mind is one I’m not proud of. I learned very clearly how selfish my reactions were to circumstances that I was confronted with. What I mean by that is there were many demands at that time related to starting a new job, being a parent, having my own family and the plans associated with family, but then also helping my father who had said to my brother and I one day as he was dealing with his terminal illness, I’d like to die at home. Which was a simple request that I expect again many people listening to this podcast a conversation that may have had with a friend or family member themselves, and that simple request and then on the implications of that followed over the next 18 months were profound.

I think my reactions through the period Jenelle were selfish in that I was confronted by a range of demands that I couldn’t meet and I was failing in different aspects of my responsibilities and feeling as though I had been unfairly put in a position where some of those demands were being made of me. Whether it was related to the family situation or at work. These are the challenges that come along in anyone’s life and this is the most normal of stories. I think it helped me to build a little bit more empathy and understanding and awareness of the challenges that many of my team are facing right now. I hope I bring that to work each day.

Jenelle: I must say Steve the thing that struck me when you were talking about this was how hard you were on yourself during that period of time. I know you talked about speaking to the then CEO Pip Marlow about feeling like there was a lot on top of you and I think she came back to you and said “You’re actually doing a really good job”. It felt to me that perhaps one of those learnings is being a little kinder to yourself as well as you navigate some things that are horrendous and they are experiences that a lot of people have and I think adding to huge expectations on yourself about how you should be performing through all of that time is perhaps one of those other things that is important to reflect on as well.

Steve: No doubt for anyone that aspires to be the best they can or achieve the goals they set out in front of them there is a definite level of dried and setting standards and meeting those standards but Pip was awesome and if I said to her I just need to take some time to do the things that I need to do rather than pretend that I can continue to be here at work and manage family situation and then be there for my parents. Pip I know would have said take the time that you need and if I’d been a better communicator or I’d been more open to that then I know Pip would have said “Take the time that you need and do what you have to do”. That would have been a pressure valve that would have been released. Definitely a learning that again I hope I bring forward and take with me as I work with my team and indeed as I face other challenges in my life down the track to as you say, be a little easier on yourself and be more open to acknowledging that there is always help there for you if you seek it.

Jenelle: Now later this year you’re launching a mental health alliance with a range of corporates. I know that’s in part been inspired by the experience that you had with your Dad. Can you tell me more about that alliance and what you’re seeking to achieve with it?

Steve: The mental health alliance is based on a similar alliance in the UK that was set up in 2013. It’s simply a group of business leaders coming together to acknowledge this most important issue and to use their collective voice as business to move the ball forward in the quality of services that organisations provide as it relates to improving mental health. Just providing psychologically safe work places. The alliance for Australia will bring together a number of large Australian corporates to share credible practice the things that we’re doing that are working and to share openly with everyone. This is not an alliance that is set up for our benefit, it’s an alliance we hope will be seen as an organisation that is there for all.

Secondly, importantly we want to be expert guided but business led. We’ve been privileged to be joined by many of the leading organisations and thinkers in mental health space here in Australia to help guide us in terms of the research that should undertake and how we should then raise the bar in providing and creating the most psychological safe workplaces that there are going around.

Jenelle: What are you doing at Microsoft to help your own employees through any mental health challenges that have come about during this time and will continue to come about in months and years to come?

Steve: I think we’re like EY and like lots of businesses Jenelle we have a very comprehensive wellbeing program. Perhaps the most impactful thing Jenelle, and I’m sure this is true and EY, is increasing the frequency of the conversation. I think for decades Australian businesses and for that matter business around the world have been talking about and working on physical safety and wellbeing, if you think about construction or mining companies, industrial firms. This has been on the agenda for literally decades and yet mental health as a separate but just as important perhaps more important area hasn’t had that type of focus and we think, and obviously through some of the announcements we are seeing from Government and the Proactivity Commission Report that talked about the $1.3 billion impact that mental health has on our economy. I think there is a deep realisation across the community that mental health is a massive concern for all of us in business and in community, and we think business has a role to play in coming together given how much time we all spend at work.

The last three – three fast questions on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: Finally Steve we like to ask each interviewee 3 fast questions which are more on the light hearted side. Let’s finish with those. What’s a misconception that most people have about you?

Steve: I like to think I have a great sense of humour but everyone in my team disagrees!

Jenelle: Well that made me laugh, so that’s probably ironic right there isn’t it!

Steve: Yes!

Jenelle: What about one guilty pleasure?

Steve: That would have to be Pinot noir.

Jenelle: Oh we share that!

Steve: Coming into the winter months there is more and more Pinot noir that seems to be appear that is definitely guilty pleasure.

Jenelle: Nice one and what’s one thing that you’re absolutely hopeless at?

Steve: Well there is a long list but being a handy man would be at the top of the list. I have a family member who is involved, works in a hospital and apparently during the pandemic with more white collar workers working from home, there is a rapid increase in the number of injuries that have been reported.

Jenelle: I have definitely seen some heavy surfacing of incompetence in that front in my household as well I must say!

Steve: Indeed! So I steer away from anything related to a hammer or a drill!

Jenelle: That’s great. Thank you Steve. I can’t thank you enough for your time. I’m just really struck by your candour and your honesty here. A few takeaways. I’ve got a list of takeaways here chief amongst them has been the power of technology’s intersections with the world and if you think about that coupled with the power of collectivism that you’ve talked about, that we are really are on the precipice of new possibilities when we join systems and service providers and focus ourselves around business and societal problems.

It’s so exciting to think about what we could achieve together and that we have an utter responsibility around societal inequities around reconciliation and when we exhibit empathy to how different people are experiencing the world, how different people’s circumstances means that their responses will be different, understand that we can’t just have one blunt instrument of communication to reach all, and tailor that, and have that understanding, that’s when we can really move mountains here.

You also talked about talent being a critical get-right. That’s fostered by deep and genuine connections whether that’s physical or in a digital sense. Beautiful messages Steve. I really appreciate your time thanks so much.

Steve: Thanks Jenelle.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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