Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Senator Shannon Fentiman

Intro: Change happens how we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight in to how senior business leaders face change. The good, the bad, and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: This podcast series ‘Change Happens’ is a conversation with senior business leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. When we set out creating the podcast about how we cope, deal and work through change we didn’t expect it to be amid the biggest worldwide change in modern history – COVID-19 but with that context in mind I ask Queensland’s Minister for Employment and Small Business and Training and Skills, Shannon Fentiman to join me to give her unique insights into how Government is leading during this time and what lessons can be gleaned as we start to ease restrictions back. In this discussion Shannon talked about what life has been like since joining Australia’s first majority lead female cabinet in Queensland back in 2015. She shares the highs of being able to effect some pretty remarkable changes and the lows of copping some heavily gendered language in Parliament. Like being called ‘hysterical’ or a ‘banshee’.

Our discussion moved from the power and criticality of small business to Queensland and indeed the Australian economy right through to the role that her grandfather played in inspiring her to be who she is today. Welcome to the ‘Change Happens Podcast’. How are you going during this time?

Shannon: Hi Jenelle, it’s an incredibly busy time but it’s good to chat to you.

Jenelle: When you say incredibly busy time it probably is a thing you say as a matter of course anyway but I imagine it’s even more acute at the moment.

Shannon: Yes it is. Things are changing everyday but I think we’re all involved in really important work right now. Supporting Queenslanders and Queensland businesses. So it’s busy but it’s purposeful.

Jenelle: On that important work, I’m really interested in talking about your small business portfolio. We know that all Australians have been affected by COVID-19 and it’s certainly been particularly acute in small business. Many have had to shut down or adjust their business operations overnight. They’ve had to juggle new legislative requirements and employee wellbeing.

Can you tell me more about the role you play to help small business during this incredibly challenging time?

Shannon: Yeah it has been incredibly challenging. I think for the first thing I would say is that the Federal Government and the Queensland Government have managed the health crisis here incredibly well.

I keep trying to remind everyone of that when you go home at night and watch the nightly news and you see what’s happening in the US, Europe, across the world, you are really reminded of how lucky we are here. That health response has obviously taken its toll on many of our small businesses because we’ve had to lockdown the economy for quite a significant period of time.

Shannon: Many Queenslanders have been devastated financially, emotionally but our small businesses that employ so many Queenslanders really have borne the brunt of the economic shutdown.

We’ve seen a range of supports from Governments, from Leaders to try and support small businesses during this time. I think my role during this time as being the Small Business Minister has been a bit of an advocate and champion for them and what they need and an enabler in Government to help make things as easy as we can right now.

Jenelle: One of the initiatives you’ve launched is #supportsmall. You’ve been hosting webinars. I think there is a Financial Resilience Webinar where small businesses identify risks and you build financial skills.

How do you see such initiatives help them mitigate the impact of COVID-19? And how important is Government in supporting small business?

Shannon: Yeah I think all of those initiatives really helps small businesses right now. I think many of them have commented. It’s really useful for them to be able to tune in and ask questions directly about the supports that are available and where to turn. One of the big pieces of feedback I’ve had as a Minister (even before COVID-19) was about Government stepping up and using its purchasing power to support small businesses.

Queensland is now the first state to set a target for its spend on goods and services with small businesses. We’ve set a target of 25% spend across Government on Queensland’s small and medium businesses and that will increase to 30% by 2022.

That is a big deal. I think Government has a huge role to play in encouraging the community to be supporting small business but we’re also a huge player in terms of procurement and our spend. I think it sets a really good example. It sends small businesses, I think, the right message, right now, that Government is here to support them as well.

Jenelle: That’s an incredibly important message an important use of the purchasing power the Government has. What have you been impressed with? Or noticed in terms of how small businesses have had to, to a degree embrace and create new opportunity in adapting to the crisis?

Shannon: Yeah look I think there are so many great examples of small businesses adapting. I’m currently doing my Pilates class via Zoom. I’m ordering my favourite restaurants food takeaway complete with a cocktail! Actually one of the things small businesses asked for that we responded to straight away, was changing our liquor laws so that small businesses who had completely pivoted to takeaway and delivery could also sell alcohol for takeaway. So that’s probably one of the things that will stay in place, I’m hoping.

Shannon: There has been some really great examples right across Queensland. We’ve had a kitchen company in regional Queensland. Their trade was obviously impacted. They actually recognised there was a gap in the market and started promoting their business to remind caravan and motor home owners – our grey nomads, that now was actually a great time to look at renovations and improvements to their caravans. It’s actually been wonderful for their business.

We’ve had a local wine bar in Brisbane offering virtual wine tastings dubbed ‘Co Vino 20’. There are some really great stories of businesses adapting and doing things differently and thinking creatively.

Jenelle: Love that! There is a reason that the adage of ‘Necessity is the mother of invention’ is an ‘adage’ and not just in Queensland. Certainly we’re seeing some amazing examples of businesses being so much closer to the shifting demands of consumers in anticipating and hearing and responding to it. I think it’s been a wonderful thing to see.

Shannon: I think the other role for Minister and Government is to bring people together to work through specific issues. One of the ones we had early on obviously was about so many restaurants and cafes pivoting to delivery - finding commission for food delivery companies really onerous. We put together a taskforce very quickly with all of the key players. There can also be a role in bringing people together and encouraging businesses to respond.

Jenelle: Just on that note of bringing people together – I think that during this crisis at least in our part of the world, we’re seeing a whole lot of examples of people coming together, new levels of collaboration taking place. We’re seeing a largely unified approach across Federal and State Governments, across different party lines to achieve the results of the COVID-19. We’re clearly the envy of the world.

Is that something you’ve experienced personally in the seat that you’re in? And are there things about the way it’s working now that you want to make sure we bottle up and take forward into a new normal? That maybe means that we might be able to tackle some of those other big ticket items. Whether it’s a national approach to domestic violence or climate change?

Shannon: Yeah I’m a total optimist. I really hope we can. In my own experience during COVID, working with Skills Ministers across the country has been really positive. There has been a really genuine constructive approach to quickly putting together new skillsets around infection control and workplace safe training.

I have to say Senator Michaelia Cash who I work with and other State Ministers have really come together and worked in a really agile way. I hope that continues. I think the community has responded incredibly well. They’re seeing the bi partnership between different political parties and State and Federal Governments.

Jenelle: We’re also seen a lot of people during this time Shannon undertaking new training to reskill during this crisis. Just picking up on the other part of your portfolio. How important do you see skills retraining being in our future economic recovery? And how important do you see the role of Government in this space?

Shannon: Yeah I think skills are going to be crucial. The Prime Minister put skills front and centre at economic recovery. It is how we get people back to work. Lower income workers are twice as likely to be out of work now due to COVID. Younger Australians and women have been hit hardest because they are in the occupations and industries that have had to shut down and are affected by social distancing.

I think the challenge is to try and get people back to work quickly and how we do that is investing in skills. Because the longer someone is out of paid work the harder it is to get them back engaged in the labour market.

I think Government and industry have a huge obligation to work together to make sure we are bringing everyone, we are skilling everyone to help people find new jobs and build new careers.

It’s something I was really focused on before COVID hit. Skills is clearly one way to drive economic and social prosperity. Government can’t do this alone. Industry partnerships are absolutely crucial. Skills development obviously has to align with job opportunities and the best way to do that is more investment in this space. Cost is the biggest barrier to someone undertaking a TAFE course or a vet qualification.
Shannon: If we can line up that investment in skills to match the job opportunities that we are going to see in recovery, we should be able to bring people with us to upskill Queenslanders and get them into those jobs, in those industries where we are going to need them.

Jenelle: As you say a lot of these conversations have been taking place pre-COVID. One of those conversations has been around the future of work and what Australia’s future workforce would or should look like. The discussion over the last few years has been looking at the massive changes to be expected to work, to workers, and to workplaces. Recently, we heard the Government announce the Council of Australian Government, so COAG to be replaced by a National Federation Reform Council. That’s going to be focused on principally on the creation of jobs.

The question is what do you think the impact of the pandemic will be on jobs? And the future of work? Will COVID help accelerate some of those things that we’ve been talking about for all this time?

Shannon: Look I think COVID has clearly already accelerated the trends of digitisation and automation. Prior to COVID, 75% of businesses reported that they were concerned about the shortage of digital skills within the industry. Through COVID we’ve actually released a lot of short online free training courses in this space. The take up has been huge. Courses on social media, digital literacy, data security, data management, we’ve had over 14,000 enrolments from small businesses and Queenslanders. This is an opportunity to invest in those skills.

Technology is changing so rapidly. The usual course of things is it takes years sometimes for universities or TAFEs to develop new courses and get them approved. We are going to have to do things differently. Short courses, micro credentials which are very short courses, is going I think be the way of the future. We have to keep up with industry’s needs and we have to be able to make this sort of training affordable and accessible so that people can get these skills needed for these jobs.

Shannon: Soft skills too. Workers will need creativity, communication skills as work continues to change. I think Government’s role is to make sure no one is left behind. Really make sure there is an emphasis on inclusiveness and ensure that workers are supported to transition and work with business and industry to make sure that’s the case.

Jenelle: You yourself have had to reskill and adjust to changes in your career. You’ve gone from a career that started in law and moved to Parliament. You’ve had to maintain a strong leadership skillset throughout those changes.

Tell me how did they come about? Was it something that you were always drawn to? Or was it circumstance and opportunity that presented itself?

Shannon: Yeah I’ve always been pretty interested in it. I grew up in a household - my parents weren’t members of a political party or anything like that but we certainly talked about politics and we certainly talked about what was going on. My grandfather who lived with us when I was growing up immigrated from Northern Ireland – a place where they don’t take democracy for granted. He would watch question time every day. We would talk about what was happening. I think I’ve always been very interested and drawn to it.

At university I got involved in a campaign against ‘HECS’ increases. My mum is a teacher. She instilled in me that belief that everyone deserves a world class education no matter where they come from. The more I got involved in those sorts of campaigns, the more I saw politics as a way to create change. That really resonated with me. I was reminded of this campaign actually recently where everyone was posting the #meat20 photos. Rather than everyone having fun in their 20’s, I was in the student union office!

Shannon: I think I’ve always been pretty interested in finding ways to create change and get involved in political campaigns.

When the opportunity came up a decade later to nominate as a candidate in my community I jumped at the chance.

Jenelle: Obviously an opportunity to make good on that clear social conscious that you have and the desire to turn into action things that most people either complain about it or just put up with.

Shannon: Yeah I think it’s been an incredibly rewarding journey. I do think I find huge purpose in the work that I do. But it also incredibly challenging at times.

Jenelle: Let’s talk about that. I imagine you must have the full spectrum of experiences of working in parliament. You’ve had what would undoubtedly be the highs of being part of a cabinet that has the majority lead by females for the first time in Australian history. Right through to the lows on the other end of the spectrum where you’re continuing to face what I can see as being quite gendered, unflattering language at times.

Tell me about the spectrum of those experiences? What’s it been like for you?

Shannon: Yeah look I was really lucky. I came straight into cabinet after being elected in 2015. For the first time we had 50% women in the cabinet which was an Australian first. Who would have thought it was Queensland. I’m pretty proud of that. Also, the first indigenous woman elected to the Queensland Parliament, my colleague Leeanne Enoch.

Shannon: I’ve been incredibly lucky that I’ve had a diverse and inclusiveness cabinet in which to work on and great women mentors. Queensland has come a long way. We have a woman Premier. We have a woman Attorney General. We have a woman Opposition Leader.

We have come a long way but there are still times when it becomes pretty clear that there are different standards for men and women in politics. I’ve spoken about this before. In question time for example, it gets quite heated as I’m sure everyone can see on the news.

Jenelle: It doesn’t look like the most inviting of rooms, I must say.

Shannon: Yeah and look the blokes are often seen as leaders and making great points and when women get up and are strong in that space, we get described, or I have been described as a ‘banshee’ and as ‘hysterical’. Many of my colleagues have as well. There is still a little way to go. But we have come so far I think having so many supportive male and female colleagues around me, you come back to why you are doing it. You have that support around you.

Jenelle: How do you pick yourself up? Let’s just say you are in Parliament facing a sea of green leather seats with some intimidating people staring back at you and they’re using language like ‘banshee’ and ‘hysterical’. What happens when you finally get home at the end of the day, you’ve kicked off your shoes. What does that look like?

Shannon: Well you know you have lots of as I say good people around you and you come back to why you are doing it I think. Some days are tough and it can be hard when you experience those sorts of comments and you find good people to talk to about it and at the end of the day you also work out whose opinion matters.

Actually that took me a little while. There are lots of people that will freely give you their advice and opinion but working out who you respect and admire and who you want to listen to, takes a little bit of practice.

Jenelle: Yeah I can understand that. It sounds like a skill that’s evolved over time for you. Tell me about some of the skills that you have been able to transfer from your legal background into Parliament and those that you’ve had to change or adapt along the way.

Shannon: I think having worked as an Employment Lawyer, I predominantly represented people that had lost their job, been injured at work or discriminated against, set me up pretty well to deal with being a local MP. I get people through my electorate office who are experiencing real challenges and hardship. I think being able to communicate in a way that demonstrates empathy has been a skill that I’ve been able to bring with me.

But to be honest most of it is about learning on the job and in politics no one really teaches you how to be a leader. You sort of learn as you go. I think one of the hardest challenges I found, particularly I came straight into the portfolio of Child Safety and Domestic Violence Prevention.

Jenelle: An incredibly tough portfolio.

Shannon: Yeah really and confronting, and having to front up to the media pretty regularly and communicate really complex emotionally brought challenges that the system was facing and that families were facing, was a pretty steep learning curve. I think after that portfolio I learnt a lot. To start to feel a little bit more comfortable when you get tough questions, having done the Child Safety Minister’s portfolio for a few years.

Jenelle: I can imagine that’s an incredibly informative time for you. I know that when you took on that portfolio the timing coincided with some really horrific cases. It received a tonne of press coverage and understandably caused a wave of community outrage. That’s the sort of stuff that goes straight to the heart of emotions for society. What was that time like for you? And how did you cope and lead through it?

Shannon: It was an incredibly tough and emotionally challenging time. I think in the end I just had to embrace it. I guess again you come back to – there was also an opportunity to change the system and make it better for families and young people. So that’s what kept me going I think. It was kind of worth the demand on my time and my lifestyle to try and achieve that change through that crisis. It wasn’t all bad I also had the opportunity to meet with kids who had been in the system and hear their stories. Meet foster parents who are incredible individuals and also the child safety staff, I wouldn’t do their job for quids. Sitting down with them and learning about their job – the pressures they faced and trying to make things easier for them to do their job kept me going as well.

One of the big challenges we faced when I was the Minister was in the community that the pressure on the system, because of the increasing use of ice by parents trying to look after kids. One of the biggest changes – I led the Department through was actually the introduction of mandatory drug testing. I’d reached the view that whether or not a family, or parents using drugs was really critical to know what support we needed to put in place in terms of rehabilitation and looking after kids and having to remove kids if necessary. But that was a huge cultural shift for a Department and for Child Safety Officers to have to go through that change.

Shannon: I think because I put the work in early, supporting the work they do and making sure they had resources, they embraced that change and came with me on that journey. But that was certainly a huge challenge at the time and continues to be. I think over a third of children who come to the attention of the Department have one or both parents using ice.

Jenelle: Its absolutely staggering isn’t it. Throughout your life Shannon you’ve always been a strong leader. You talked about even in your university days helping out those less fortunate than yourself. You talked about one of the key changes you brought in was mandatory drug testing. If you think about the key points in your life where you’ve initiated change, faced or influence or outcome you’re most proud of. What are the ones that stand out for you?

Shannon: As a local MP I worked really hard to return community midwifery services in the community and have seen really great outcomes for so many women. As a Minister there is a few. Certainly as Child Safety Minister obviously a huge injection of resources into the system. We changed the way we worked with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families. Funded Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander organisations to really work with families. I think Queensland is one of the only states now that is in decline in the amount of First Nations children coming into care. That’s something I’m pretty proud of.

Jenelle: So what was it do you think that made the difference there that hadn’t been addressed before?

Shannon: I think really listening to families, elders and the organisations that work with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families. When I came in and got my first briefing, the Department said to me “Oh Minister one of the really big issues is we’ve got this really increasing percentage of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children coming into care.” Over 40% of all kids in care were Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander – they are less than 10% of the population. I said “Okay what percentage of funding are we actually putting into those organisations that work with those families?” Of course it was nowhere near then what it needed to be. We radically changed that and actually properly funded community controlled organisations and worked with them on a strategy and really changed the work we worked with them. It’s having an impact – which is something I’m pretty proud of.

I think in this portfolio, the work we’re doing now to support small businesses I think is critical. There are a lot of good things.

Jenelle: What are the biggest lessons that you’ve learnt over the years? Including through your political journey that has served you well?

Shannon: I think building coalitions of support for change are really critical. The first thing that I do as the Minister in a new portfolio is you ring all of the stakeholders. You go and meet with them. You listen to their perspectives. What they want to see change and you try and bring people together and find common ground. I think that’s the only way change happens.

Jenelle: Change Happens. That sounds like a great name for a podcast!

Shannon: Yeah that’s right! I think certainly even in the days of child safety crisis I had stakeholders with me the whole way on the path to change. Again, I think that’s because you put the work in early and bring people together.

I think the other piece of advice is asking for help and asking for advice is really critical and, finding people who you trust and respect to go to for that advice. I’m really lucky that one of the first jobs I did as a young lawyer was working for a Judge,
Justice Atkinson as her Associate in the Supreme Court. She is excellent at giving advice for life and for leadership. I’ll often ring her. Andrew Fraser who is the Former Treasurer is another person that I will often ring for advice. Also asking for help. I have a lot of great neighbours and friends that help me do my job. I was on the Sunshine Coast last year when I got an alert saying ‘there is a bushfire in your street’.

Jenelle: Wow.

Shannon: I’ll ring my neighbours and my friends and I’ll be in Cairns and will get a call from someone who has found my dog. There is also a lot of people who help you do your job when you are in these jobs. I think asking for help is a really good lesson.

Jenelle: Shannon, I can imagine no matter what side of the political party landscape you fall it would be an incredibly taxing time. The clock doesn’t stop. We see the professional side of you but how are you managing this personally when you get home?

Shannon: Yeah look the job becomes all-encompassing I think it has to. You make sure that you get support. You make sure that your staff are supported and you relish the time when you can clock off and go home and get into your slippers! Have a cup of tea and spend time with the family. I’m really driven by a sense of purpose so it keeps you really motivated, but it is tough and it’s tough on family and having really great supportive family and friends is really important. As I said make sure that you are getting support I think is really important and that staff are supported too.

Jenelle: Do you build in any kind of mechanisms to make sure that there is the opportunity to get that downtime?

Shannon: Like I said to you before making sure I can get to my Pilates class once a week is how I make sure that I’m having that time for me and focusing on my health. Making sure that those appointments stay in the diary is really important.

Jenelle: I think as well when people are watching you it’s an important part of signalling and the message that you send and how you take care of yourself is important too.

Is that something that you’ve been really aware of and conscious of?

Shannon: Yeah absolutely. Making sure that staff feel that they can come to you when they’re having a tough time and need some time off. Making sure that you send that signal about being really approachable and staff being able to talk about how tough it is. Cause it is pretty relentless. You work constantly in these jobs. Making sure that you find space in the office to talk about that too I think is really important.

Jenelle: I’ve read your inaugural speech when you came into Parliament Shannon, there was something that really struck me. In that speech you talked about your grandfather and his influence and you talked about the word ‘solidarity’ and that’s really stuck with me. Talk to me about what that word means for you. Why has it stuck with you?

Shannon: Yeah I think it is how I approach my role every day. It is about collaborating – bring people with you on the change journey when you have big ideas, you need a team of people working with you to achieve that. I’m mentioned my grandfather earlier. He was a huge influence on my life. He worked as a mental health nurse and was a Nurses’ Union delegate for all of his life. He really instilled in me those values of team work, solidarity, collaboration, working together to change things for the better. As you can see it’s played out in my career.

Jenelle: I can see that.

Shannon: Yeah I often think of him in this role.

Jenelle: Absolutely no doubt he’d be very proud!

Shannon: Thank you. I actually – I keep a picture in my office of the house he grew up in with his
15 siblings in Northern Ireland just to remind me where I’m from. I think it’s important. It’s the one thing I actually get a bit emotional about.

The last three – three fast question on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: Finally we like to ask each interviewee 3 fast questions which are more in the light hearted side. First one what’s the misconception that most people have about you?

Shannon: I think as a public figure you have a certain public image that you show but really my favourite thing is to put on my gum boots and get in my veggie garden. That’s what makes me happy.

Jenelle: And are you getting a chance to get those gum boots on at the moment?

Shannon: No! But when I do, I love it!

Jenelle: What’s one guilty pleasure?

Shannon: Mine would be a Quarter Pounder value meal!

Jenelle: A Quarter Pounder!

Shannon: Yes!

Jenelle: What is one thing that you absolutely hopeless at?

Shannon: Hand/eye coordination. Anything requiring any sort of coordination. In fact, I’m probably going to regret sharing this! At my Grade 12 formal I actually dislocated my knee dancing! That’s how bad it is! Yep I’m not a very coordinated person!

Jenelle: That’s quite endearing. Shannon, I can’t thank you enough for your time today and for being so open. Lots of takeaways but if feels like you’ve done a fantastic job of summarising exactly ‘How Change Happens’.

• Whether that’s been from listening and really listening to what people need and are seeking 
• Building a coalition of support 
• The power of collectivism – working together. We certainly can’t do these things alone 
• The power of communication, and
• Also asking for help

Great lessons there for us. Thank you so much Shannon.

Shannon: Thanks Jenelle.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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