Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Sally Capp

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change. The good, the bad and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: Hi, I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to the Change Happens podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learnt along the way. Today I’m joined by the Right Honourable Lord Mayor of Melbourne, Sally Capp. The first directly elected female Lord Mayor who leads the portfolio for city transport, infrastructure and operations and Aboriginal Melbourne. Sally began her career as a solicitor serving both large corporates and entrepreneurial endeavours including launching a funds management business which then went on to list on the Australian Stock Exchange.

Having worn several hats throughout her career, in 2018 she decided to dedicate herself to public services driven by her experience in business, her understanding of how to get things done and her passion to work on behalf of the city she loves.

Awarded the McKinnon Emerging Political Leader of the Year in 2019 Sally was the first woman to hold the post of Agent General for Victoria in the UK, Europe and Israel and she has also well known for being the first female member of the Collingwood Football Club Board. As you can hear, she is a person of many firsts.

In this episode we explore how this trailblazing Lord Mayor is creating change and the lessons she has learnt along the way. Including over the last 18 months which has been a particularly critical time in the City of Melbourne’s history with the influence of covid19. Lots to get into so let’s do exactly that. Clearly the Lord Mayor of Melbourne as we can hear those trams in the background. Hi Sally – can I call you Sally?

Sally: Absolutely, Sally is fine, thank you.

Jenelle: Okay great. Well Sally as I mentioned in that intro, Melburnians have certainly been through a lot during covid as the cities most locked down city in the world, how have you been handling that as a citizen of Melbourne and how are you handling that as a leader of Melbourne?

Sally: Wow, that’s a really big question to start Jenelle, thank you.

Jenelle: [laugh] … didn’t ease you into it, did I?

Sally: No, I love it, let’s jump straight in. It’s been extreme! I think for so many people, we’re going through a set of circumstances that we haven’t experienced in our lifetime and that saying that there isn’t a playbook for this, is something that has really resonated in many conversations that I’ve had personally as well as professionally.

From a personal perspective I’m really lucky that I’m not just a “glass half filled” sort of person. I’m a glass all the way full sort of person and I tend towards the optimistic but really, I tend towards the things that I can control and that I can do and that gives me a sense of progress and a sense of purpose and even small achievements, day to day, really counted for a lot during covid. I think that personal approach is very much at the centre of how I’ve gone about leading during this experience.

Sally: I’ve always … I know there’s the word “authentic” that some people think is overused, but I really feel leaders that are authentic are people that I’m drawn towards because it gives everybody permission to be themselves, to bring their talents and their skills, their experiences but also to be able to say “I don’t know, I’m not sure, I think I’ve got it wrong”. I find that that approach is also much better in circumstances where if we don’t have a playbook, lets face it, whatever we do has risks, is a trial, could be a pilot, its experimenting and its exploring and being able to be open to failure and respect that as well as of course, striving for success is really important in these sorts of environments. So, from my perspective as a leader, its to be … to acknowledge that its tough, to represent the very desperate and devastating times that people have been experiencing but to be positive and proactive in identifying ways forward and literally, every extra person that we could help each day, each small step towards a better outcome has been something that I’ve held onto to make sure I can stay motivated and focussed.

Jenelle: I love that. It’s a really wonderful blend of authentically and empathically learning into the experience that is whilst focussing on the really proactive steps that one can take to move forward, I love that and we will come back to some of the initiatives that you focussed on in Melbourne, but I would love to take a step back and look at your formative years where I know that you spent time in your early childhood in Papua New Guinea. Why was that and what was it like?

Sally: Well, I admire my parents so much for being adventurous. They’ve been adventurous in many ways but one of them was literally the day after they got married, they jumped on a plane to a place called Papua New Guinea and I think that sense of adventure and of risk taking frankly and excitement about the unknown is something that has really resonated strongly with me and my siblings. We left there when I was five so I really was very young but I have some very strong memories of time in Rabaul, an island called Great New Britain and very tropical, very exotic, a wonderful childhood but I also remember clearly some of the turbulence and some of the confusion and aggression that happened as Australia started to transition out of that area and New Guinea was moving to self-governance and it was a really … yeah a really confronting time but I think a very important time. So I have very strong memories of that as well.

Jenelle: Yeah, I’m sure you do. I mean it’s a young age when you left there but no doubt the experiences and the feelings would have a really strong sense of what was happening around you which no doubt play forward. Coming back to Australia, you developed a love of sport and was part of a mixed football team in Melbourne’s eastern suburbs. In hindsight, how do you think that has influenced roles that you subsequently took on in adult life and I can’t help but think of the fact that you’re the first female on Collingwood Football Club Board. Was it your own personal experience of sport that led you that way?

Sally: Yes well there’s a phase, I guess thinking of it now it’s a bit of an old fashioned phase which is to be a “tomboy”. I was certainly considered one of those but I think it was more that I grew up in an environment where you should just have a go at everything and I’m a serial “have-a-goer” and that has led to some very humiliating moments as well Jenelle but it has helped me to push my own personal boundaries but also to push the boundaries of environments and structures that I’ve been … that I’ve worked with in particularly and its really stood me in good steads so if there was a football game happening, guess what, I wanted to be part of it. It was, you know, a game of hopscotch or it was a maths competition or drum band, I put my hand up for drum band as well in primary school. All of those things, to me if they seemed interesting and it was possible, then I got involved.

Jenelle: How did you get over the … you mentioned the humiliating moments. How do you brush yourself off from that sort of thing and keep going?

Sally: Look its really led to a good respect for failure because from those humiliating moments have come the most illuminating moments about myself, about other people, about organisations, about society and I really see it as accelerated learning, even if its learning the hard way and it has stood me in good stead throughout my career. 

Sally: It’s not that I rush towards failure or humiliation but I’m not thwarted by it either. So, I have that healthy respect, as I said. I’ve had failures and I’ve had challenges personally and professionally and I look at those as very much as turning points in my life. I had an experience with cancer in 2006 and that was a pivotal time for me to move into a different type of work. I’ve had experiences in the business world that have been harsh and from those though, I’ve really always used those experiences to help either accelerate or leap forward from there rather than look back.

In fact, one of the most interesting experience I had that is imprinted in my memory is when I was doing some work in Israel and I sat down with one of the very successful venture capitalist there and I had a pitched deck talking about how successful I was and all of the credentials or concept I had and his first question – he actually interrupted my presentation and said “can you tell me about your best five failures”.

Jenelle: Oh wow.

Sally: And I was … I really was … I had to sit back and I was flummoxed, I was not prepared for that and I asked him why and he said “he really likes to back people that have shown the resilience that comes from failure, the learnings that come from failure” and he always asked that question because he knows that there’ll be more determination, the people can identify better workarounds, that they’re better at pivoting which I now call pirouetting and they don’t see barriers as full stops. They see them really as opportunities to keep evolving and changing, twisting and turning to something that’s better and it’s always stuck with me, that its not just me who can value my own failures but it’s actually others that can value them as well.

Jenelle: I love that and actually I had spent some time in Silicon Valley in that moment when you could travel a couple of years ago and they had the same philosophy around not backing people unless they’d had, you know, some serious amount of failures to clock experiences. There’s something really in that and do you remember, Sally, when you were in that interview, any of the failed experiences that you spoke of, is there one that comes to mind for you that’s formed a, you know, an indelible lesson learned that you’ve then taken forward.

Sally: Yeah, there are a lot [laugh], Jenelle but one that really sticks out for me is when I did leave the law and I partnered with a former client to set up what I call “an adventure capital company”. It was so far up the risk profile, it wasn’t just venture it was adventure. I walked around town looking for investors or seeking investors and I went to people initially who I had worked with previously and so I felt confident that they understood my capabilities and that they would be sort of warm targets, if you like, for my initial investors.

After a few of those meetings and frankly, my first few “nos”, I realised that I was moving into something completely different and yet I was still relying on my experiences and the skills I had developed as a lawyer to take me on that bridge to something new and that just wasn’t enough and they were really good sorts of slaps across the face because people wanted to support me but I wasn’t mitigating myself as a risk to them by having, you know, a more thoughtful business plan, by really identifying what the risks were and discussing what the mitigating effects could be or the workarounds might be by building in some measures to de-risk their investment with me which can go to structure, it can go to terms, it could go to what’s in your constitution or it could go to what’s in the shareholders agreement. All of the things I should have been thinking about but I was really being assumptive about how people saw me and not putting in the right work to, as I say mitigate myself as a risk.

Sally: So when I say, and I encourage others to take risks, really the first step is to put a different perspective to be more empathetic if you like but to put on the lens of the investor of the stakeholder or the customer or the supplier, whoever you’re talking to, and look at you and your proposition from their perspective and then address all the issues that will excite them but also will make them nervous and in doing that, really start down a different conversation, different preparation and in some cases different propositions. So the other thing I learnt about that is that I’m completely responsible for doing that and l like to work with those elements where I have some control, particularly when you’re taking risks. So even identifying what the risks are can be a proactive and positive thing to do.

Jenelle: I love that. It’s a really, really powerful insight to take forward with you and I think that’s, you know, a good lesson for us all. You’ve had the confidence to change roles, change industries, change discipline multiple times. I think there’s at least ten times in there and over your career. You have the ability to ignore any sideline commentary of people questioning your decisions and there have been questions about those at times. You mentioned that line or that philosophy of having a healthy respect for failure. I’m really fascinated. I’m probably the polar opposite of you Sally and I would love to take more of a leaf out of your book. Is it something that people can learn? How can one cultivate that kind of orientation to become serial “have-a-goers”?

Sally: It’s a good question because I think there are elements of people who like change that are innate. That whole sort of nurture versus nature but I do think you can learn it and I think it just starts with little things. Set little challenges and start on that progression of learning being comfortable with risk and as I said then, being comfortable with some failures and humiliations along the way and then build up that sense of resilience, personal resilience and find the way that those challenges shape you and the way that you want to respond and go forward because, you know, a big part of the change or taking risk is that sense of unknown that goes with it. I remember and this is a personal story, we were living in London, two boys in their teens and we were planning on spending some more time overseas and the boys gave us a little presentation on why they both had enjoyed the experience there but they did want to go home. It was a completely compelling presentation that they gave us and without even looking at each other, my partner Andrew and I both looked at them and said “okay, we’ll go home” and then they looked back at us with a sort of quizzical look and said …

Jenelle: That would have thrown them.

Sally: … “don’t you have to check with somebody first” and we said “no, this is our life and we get to make these decisions and it will have consequences but we’ll work through those but its really important that, you know, we make decisions in our life” and for them, they couldn’t believe it. They were expecting us to go through all sorts of processes or hurdles or ask other people but at the end of the day it was a family decision to come home, even if it wasn’t always the best career decision for Andrew and I but it was a really important time and I think they learnt a lot out of that in terms of really taking responsibility for your own life and sometimes there are situations where the decisions are out of your control but they’ll always be elements within it that you can control or be proactive or really make your own decisions and so I tend towards those situations but it was a great learning for them but it also was a really good … it was a good emphasis for us on how important it is to feel that you’ve got options and to make your own decisions.

Jenelle: There’s a lot I love about that, not least of which is the fact that your boys did a pitch to Mum and Dad …

Sally: [laugh].

Jenelle: … I can’t imagine my two kids putting together a pitch like that but I do love it and I love that you, I mean I guess demonstrated what empowerment looks like and which is wonderful. You’ve picked up on a thread there that I’m interested to explore a bit further Sally and that’s around change that happens outside of your control and you mentioned a little earlier that you did go through a really difficult time in your … the fact that you had cancer in yours 30s. You had a young family, two young sons at that time and I can’t imagine how difficult that would have been. What do you remember about that time? What are the things that stand out in your mind, particularly as somebody who is so drawn to focussing on the things that you can control? What was that time like?

Sally: Yeah, well I remember it vividly, of course, because we hadn’t had any health issues in either side of our family, so we had really been untouched in that way and when the doctor said to me “you’ve got cancer”, I think there are still so many unknowns. Even though we’ve made such great strides forward with this disease in its many forms and this illness, there is still a lot of unknowns.

So, the “C” word to me, it was fear to my heart and my first thoughts and emotions went to the children and I can still get emotional about it today being just so concerned about the impact on them and their future and that uncertainty and it really, as I said, it really did strike me to my heart. So many things going on in your head intellectually but very emotionally led in those initial stages which can be difficult because there’s so much to sort through and look, at the end of the day when we ask lots of questions and we work through the detail, I had one of the best cancers you can hope to have and a tumour that can be taken out and some treatment that eradicates it from your body and life goes on. So, I felt again, an appreciation for and a sense of luck in terms of that but it took a long time for the emotions to settle and to start thinking more clearly and its just the fear and its absolute fear.

Jenelle: I can’t imagine! What would you say were the big takeaways that you have forever carried forward from that time?

Sally: Yeah, it’s a good question and you mentioned empowerment earlier and I think what’s really important for me in my life and I think for others is to always feel that you’ve got options and you can make choices. When I was told I had cancer, of course I immediately thought well this is it, that’s the end and I didn’t have the knowledge or the information in those initial stages to feel that I had choices to make and that I could self-determine my future. I thought that was being done for me and of course, as conversations evolved and our knowledge grew, we realised we had lots of options.

So I think really important is that sense of always looking for where you can find momentum to move forward and look, there’s a saying that I say to myself every day and sometimes, Jenelle, more than once a day, depending on what the circumstances are and it’s from a gentleman named Edward Hale from centuries ago but it goes like this.

“I’m only one but I am one. I cannot do everything but I can do something and I will not let what I cannot do interfere with what I can do” and it really centres me and it gets me refocussed on those things that I can do and that I can achieve and even if they’re tiny steps forward, I take that as a positive and I use that momentum to keep going forward because there are so many circumstances that I can’t change, that I can’t control.

They’re not my decisions to make but they may still affect me and I just remind myself that I am one so its important to remember that we’ve all got that power, that is our own persona, that I can’t possible achieve everything but there’ll always be things that I can achieve and I really do focus, not on the roadblocks but on the avenues to move forward and that’s been very helpful for me.

Jenelle: That is an incredibly and I know that you’ve mentioned that to me in the past, that quote, and I’ve been thinking about that a lot. It’s just such an empowering when you feel catatonic and if you feel like there is no … just the tiniest step forward or the realisation that it might be only you but it is you, you’re still there, is really empowering. It makes me think of something that my last podcast interview was with Holly Ransom who I know you know very well and she made a statement that said, was on the lines of the greatest gift of achieving change is momentum and what you really talked about there is the creation of momentum. Now however slight that might be, directionally its forward, isn’t it?

Sally: It is and it’s very powerful.

Jenelle: With all those choices that you’ve made and the changes that you’ve made in your life, has there been an overarching purpose that has helped shape or inform those choices?

Sally: Yeah, that’s really interesting because I think at different times of your life you’re tactical and strategic and it could be in the same day but different issues and I used to think, particularly around my career, I’d say “I’m just opportunistic” but actually I was much more strategic and still am much more strategic than it may seem on paper with that many career changes Jenelle. I think it’s really important to have an overriding sense of your priorities at any given time and again, they change through your life, through those stages in life and those priorities I’ve always used as the guiding light in terms of decision making, resource allocation.

I’ve got to say when I started in my career, I was very focussed on almost progression at any cost but then I really did start to understand the costs of that and I wanted to be able to reflect who I was as a person and I wanted to be able to feel that I was valued and that I could give value and I remember as a young lawyer, after a meeting with a senior partner getting into the lift and he looked sternly at me because I had spoken in the meeting and he said “I don’t give an F what you think and I don’t want to hear you speak in a meeting unless I’ve, you know, told you prior that you have permission to do so and the clients does care what you think, you just, you know, a young fodder basically”. I felt so belittled and I really questioned why on earth was I even doing this and I started that journey which is an ongoing journey about my own sense of resolve, of who I am, what my values are and what drives me.

I remember that distinctly because it really started me questioning myself and how I was going to go about things, the sort of person I wanted to be, the sort of people I wanted to work with, the type of activities I wanted to be involved with and I haven’t always got it right, but really since the cancer in 2006 I realised I wanted to feel more of a sense of connection to community and what was happening around me and that led me into a different career path where I could get involve with government, I could be involved in policy, I could feel I was contributing to a bigger agenda and not at all do I disrespect that sense of drive around personal success and gain but I’m just mixing it up a bit more with a sense of pride in what I’m able to contribute to the broader community and economy.

Jenelle: I’m keen to sort of explore the value side a bit more when you said, you know, you want to remain true to your values and you’re really had to sort of explore deeply what they are to you. What would be the one or two values that you would hold up as absolute non-negotiables that really guide the way you are?

Sally: Really the top one is … was instilled in me from my parents and that is to have respect for everybody, no matter who they are, no matter what job they do, there’ll be something that they contribute that is valuable and it’s important that we treat everybody with respect and, of course, you can’t expect respect back if you’re not willing to give respect and the reason that’s been so important to me is because it’s meant that, you know, I’ve met all sorts of different people and I’ve taken the time to understand what’s important to them and what they do and how they see they’re making a contribution and it’s really made my life far more interesting than it probably ever would be but it’s also been a very fundamental way of establishing relationships with people is through respect. 

Sally: The next part of what’s important to me from a values’ perspective was driven home to me in spades during the first campaign I did in 2018 to become Lord Mayor and that’s about being curious and not being judgemental. It’s about asking questions and not making assumptions and form judgements once we’ve gathered more information, more perspectives, more insights.

When I went into the campaign in 2018 and I’d never been in a situation of, you know, meeting with constituents, of being in debates and having to answer questions that can be quite personal but in very public forums, I realised I’ve made a lot of assumptions particularly about politicians and people in public office or public roles and that that’s what was happening to me. People were making assumptions about me based on my background or my resume or how I looked. In fact in one of the first meet the candidate nights, a gentleman stood up and I naively was like a puppy dog with a wagging tail and so excited to think that somebody was going to ask me a question and ask my opinion on an issue and this person stood up and said “Sally Capp, we want you to know that it doesn’t matter what you say, none of us will be voting for you because we believe that you represent affluent capitalists who are only looking to, you know, continue the status quo and we just don’t believe a word that comes out of your mouth”. Wow!

Jenelle: What did he really think [laugh].

Sally: What a dramatic way to kick off my first meeting the candidate night but it really struck home to me that people do make assumptions and we all should take the time to ask more questions.

Jenelle: Wow! You know, there’s such a beautiful synergy and alignment between your values of respect for everybody and curiosity and non-judgement with your kind of redefined view of success around being connected to community. You can’t be connected to community if you don’t have that respect. You can’t be connected to community if you’re not curious and without judgement and you’re not making assumptions. So, it just seems so synergetic to me and so wonderfully aligned. So now with that understanding of what drew you to local government, how difficult was that shift from a commercial mindset to serving local government and what surprised you about making that transition, you know, whether its on the upside or the downside?

Sally: Yeah, and of course they’ve been both and you know, I’m still learning. In fact, one of my sort of rules as I’ve moved through my career is to always take with me, you know, the best of what I’ve learned and that means I really try to make the most out of every role I’ve had. I make the most of every experience. I wring it out like a sponge to make sure I’ve got the best of every possibility and as I came into local government, I was pretty upfront on the fact that I’d never been in local government before, I’d never been in an elected role before but I did feel that my past experiences gave me a solid platform from which to bring the best of that experience but also to keep growing and keep learning and I think, of course, that’s played out unbelievably because the three years that I’ve been here, we’d had, you know, massive cultural issues to deal with internally. That’s the circumstances on which I came in. We’ve had a terrorist attack. We’ve had some horrible murders of young women. We’ve had massive bush fires in the country that we mobilised here in the city and then of course, we’ve had a pandemic and during that time, we’ve had things like earthquakes and I felt like a tornado last week as well. So, it’s been very eventful.

Jenelle: It really has all been happening, yeah.

Sally: It’s been very eventful and it’s really tested me and I think part of that respect for other people is knowing that you build teams where you can bring the best of your skills but you’re also relying on the best of other people’s skills.

Sally: We don’t come into role being perfect in every part of that role and so being very open about my strengths and weaknesses and being very appreciative of other people’s strengths and weaknesses and frankly working in environments where you’re allowed to have weaknesses, all of those elements have been really important to me as I’ve come into this role. So, I’ve used my legal background. I’ve used my commercial background. I’ve used my life experiences and I’ve used the many roles that I’ve had to bring the best things I’ve learned along the way to value here in Town Hall but be very open to learning from others where they’ve got knowledge and skills that can really enhance myself, who I am as a person but also me as a leader of the City.

Jenelle: And Sally, you outlined a ton of different things that have happened, many of which we never saw coming, would never have hoped to be seen coming but notwithstanding the stuff that has just happened and had to navigate, is there or has then been an unpinning change agenda that you are trying to drive?

Sally: Yes and you know, in reflection, the change … some of that change agenda we are steering in a proactive way and some of that change agenda is obviously been thrust upon us. There’s a responsibility to learn from those situations to be better. I’m really a big fan of challenging to improve so I love people challenging me and my thinking and my approaches on things on the basis that they’re doing that to help improve the situation and I challenge on that basis as well and that’s really important in both situations of change where you’re leading it to changes thrust upon you.

I say that because just when you think you’re in control of something, another twist will happen and you find that it’s a different outcome than what you thought or people have responded differently to how you would anticipated or something external happens that really knocks off an internal agenda. It’s a daily occurrence and I think being open to that and being able to move with those different rhythms has been something that, over time, has become sort of central to the way that I lead. I’m really open to all of those things. I’m happy to say I don’t know, I’m happy to say I was wrong. I’ve had to say that publicly and it’s terrifying and its humiliating but if it’s the right thing to do, you must do it.

I think it’s also been important for me, in this role which is a publicly elected role, to reflect the mood of the people I represent and at times that can be jubilance and other times it can be fear and frustration and it’s important to acknowledge the reality of a situation but then look to identify ways forward to create that momentum we talked about earlier and I’ve also found that being vulnerable, being okay with mistakes and acting quickly to correct them means that people also find me very approachable. They share, maybe over share sometimes but they share things with me. I’m very accessible to people and I find that really helps cut through issues more quickly and it also helps to rally people when needed. So that’s really become part of the hallmark of how I lead.

Jenelle: I love that and speaking of reflecting the mood, I think you’re quite right. It is important to reflect the mood. When I think about, you know, Melbourne CBD and how … while it’s been impacted due to covid19, you know, lockdown but what would you say the morale of Melbourne is like at the moment and how do you help support and build that up.

Sally: Well of course when we look at this whole pandemic period and the rollercoaster that we’ve been on, there have been some massive downs and literally I think that’s part of the pandemic dynamic is that there have been some many elements that we just can’t control, whether it’s the way that the virus has moved and caused such a big health issue to the way the different levels of government have responded, to the way that individuals have responded. All of these extreme situations have really led to days where there are so many things that have felt out of our control. I mean, let’s face it, we’ve had a 9 o’clock curfew, we’ve had a 5km travel rule. It’s quite extraordinary to think about what we’ve been through as the city that’s had the most days in lockdown of any city in the world, but from that hardship also come some of the most astounding and impressive aspects of how we’ve responded as a community.

Sally: On the whole people have understood that their personal actions has a really big impact on the entire community. That’s why we adhered to restrictions that none of us wanted but we did it to help save people’s lives, to help ensure that there was no burden on our health system and frontline workers and we’ve done the most extraordinary job. I think people should look back with much pride in very difficult, difficult circumstances.

So that sense of the ups and downs have been extreme but for all of the very difficult situations, there have been the most incredible silver linings, you know, from how we’ve been able to work with the Victorian government to make sure our rough sleepers have had safe places to sleep and support services every day. A situation that previously had been thought too complex, too costly, too difficult to solve and yet within a pandemic environment, we were able to do it, align goals, share resources and actually make things happen. So, it’s been a time of extremes and for all of the negatives, there have been just as many positives and really now its about capturing as much as we can of that positive. The positive outcomes and the positive approaches and making sure that they’re really helping drive that momentum as we move forward.

Jenelle: Now in 2019 you were awarded – I mentioned this in the intro, you were awarded the McKinnon Emerging Political Leader of the Year prize and that was specific to your leadership of the Melbourne City Council. You were noted for your presence in Town Hall where you fostered a high degree of consensus amongst councillors, for advancing an impactful policy agenda. So clearly, when I look at that, I think well you’ve learnt a thing or two about understanding the different perspectives of stakeholders and finding the common ground from which to drive change. From your perspective, how were you operating to get that kind of result and recognition.

Sally: Well firstly, I hadn’t been an emerging anything for a long time Jenelle, so I was absolutely thrilled to get the Emerging Political Leader award.

Jenelle: You know I really do think it is important to recognise that and I’m glad you are … I still think you are being a little humble in there.

Sally: [laugh].

Jenelle: In getting that recognition, what do you remember about the way you were operating …

Sally: Yes, yes …

Jenelle: … but got that …

Sally: Back to your real question Jenelle, thank you … being very polite. Well look, I’m … look I’m a collaborator and I’m a consensus builder by nature. It’s been … it’s my approach. It’s sort of fundamental to who I am and absolutely key to that is persistence. There are so many times when a door is closed or somebody says it’s too hard or they don’t want to play along and certainly here, there was a huge amount of turmoil at the time that I came in as Lord Mayor. That was following a situation where the former Lord Mayor had been involved in sexual harassment claims and really it was raw and there were a lot of emotions and there was a real desire to move forward but still embroiled so much in investigations and I guess the defence of what had been happening at the time, that it was hard for people to really find a way forward.

So, I think being somebody new was certainly helpful because I could come in and cut through and I’ve got to say I made some mistakes at the start as well where I came in and I thought “oh okay,” … I mean I’m being really honest now Jenelle …

Jenelle: Yes please!

Sally: … the situation where people were looking for strong leadership and that I had to make some early decisions and really, you know, show my mark on the organisation and how I was going to be as a leader. I came in and I made a couple of decisions on relatively small things that were happening here at Town Hall and I realised pretty quickly that that’s not what people needed. They needed kindness and care. They needed a sense of understanding of the emotional toll the situation had taken on them as both councillors and staff and they needed a leader who was going to show that care and interest whilst being strong.

So it wasn’t that I needed to make all those decisions on day 1, it was a time for listening, a time for people to recover from the trauma and to find a consensus for a new way forward which I was uniquely placed to do given that I hadn’t been here through the circumstances and so having made those early decisions and seeing the look on people’s face of shock and frankly exhaustion, to have somebody sort of coming in over the top and declaring certain things without having a true understanding of the situation was the wrong thing to do and I do think this is a really important part of leadership as people go along their journeys is that when you make a decision … where you’re expected to make decisions as a leader, but when you make a decision and you realise it’s the wrong one, make another decision really quickly and keep moving forward and as I indicated earlier, I’m quite comfortable to say when I’ve been wrong and to look to a different way forward and so that’s what we’ve done here. It’s a big journey of healing and that comes from acknowledging what the challenges were, what the reality is and then as I said, identifying different ways forward and it’s actually been a big part of what I’ve learnt being involved with our traditional owners and traditional custodians here.

In Melbourne, is very much that sense of truth telling and being able to acknowledge because without acknowledging the reality, how do you move forward with confidence that you can deliver a new reality and to me it seems so basic now when I look back. I mean Strategy 101 is the first thing I’ve got to do is … the first thing you’ve got to do is identify the reality of the situation to be able to put initiatives and strategies in place to deal with that and if you don’t, you’ve really just got a whole lot of wheels spinning and no traction. So that sense of identifying the reality but having some solutions to test and try and hopefully to deliver is really important.

Jenelle: Thanks for that example. I feel like it’s a very … it’s a really honest story of your own assumption of what a strong decision maker looks like. I could hear the desk thumping there, you know, and the indication “oh okay, I need to hit my fist (not that you did that in real life) but you know, hit my fist on the table, make a decision with, you know, with confidence and with pace” but actually a strong decision maker can still show up with kindness, with listening …

Sally: Exactly!

Jenelle: … slowing them down to make that decision. So, it’s a really interesting example of an assumption of what that looks like as a persona versus what actually was being sought. I love that!

The last three. Three fast questions on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: Final fast three for you Sally. What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?

Sally: Gosh! Reading – I’ve got about 20 books on my bedside table and it ranges from “Mayors that change the world” which is looking at the role of cities and how the world is changing to Hillary Clinton’s first attempt at fiction and you know, State of Terror I think the book is called and I can’t wait to get into it but I really read a lot and I find it a great escape as well as a great education.

Jenelle: Wow, I will have to get a photo snapshot of your bedside reading table so we can share that.

Sally: [laugh].

Jenelle: What is your superpower? Now this can be something that’s additive to the world or it can be … I’m equally interested in a useless party trick!

Sally: How good! Well, I can do a three-leaf clover with my tongue but I don’t think that is my super power and I’m sorry that you’ve now got that image that you can probably never take back …

Jenelle: No, you can’t take it away now … I’m happy to leave it [laugh].

Sally: Yes, but I think my superpower is … it’s almost an unquenchable, unstoppable energy that I feel so lucky. I seem to have constant releases of dopamine and energy and I feel so lucky to have that because it just means I’m always up for something, I’m always interested and I’m always happy to put in the hard work and I feel lucky to have so much energy.

Jenelle: I wasn’t sure there was going to be much to top the three-leaf clover trick but boundless energy is definitely going to take it.

Sally: [laugh].

Jenelle: If you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, perhaps you’ve already given it to us earlier, what would it be?

Sally: Yeah, that’s the quote that I say everyday and, you know, I think it can be really shortened to, you know, “focus everyday on the areas where you can make a difference and don’t slip into the vortex of that sense of hopelessness that comes when you’re faced with all of the things”. Let’s face it, everyday everybody has situations that they can’t control or they don’t like or that are difficult but we’re also faced every day with those situations where we can make a difference and a contribution. So, I think it really is about making the most of every day and focussing on those areas where you can make a difference.

Jenelle: Oh Sally, thank you so much for your time today. I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Massive amount of takeaways for me, whether it’s, you know, focussing as you’ve just said on what you can control. I love that it, you know, you derive from that a sense of achievement. It helps unlock inertia, it creates momentum and whether that’s a tiny step forward or something of a slingshot level of change, its all directionally moving forward.

You opened by saying that you are a “glass all the way full” person and that is very, very evident to me. Even with the simple things of your reframing, whether it’s, you know, from a pivot to a pirouette or a venture company to an adventure company. There’s a clear reframing of positivity and “can-do” about the way that you operate. I love that you believe that you should always take with you the best of every experience and considering how many experiences you’ve had and you continue to take forward, it blows my mind how many positive things you’ve taken forward and the wealth of knowledge and depth you’ve built up.

You’ve shown us so many examples of the power of your persistence and the other side of that coin of persistence is resilience to me and so the resilience that you have shown through your words, the humiliations, the setbacks to keep going has been amazing and actually your value around curiosity. I often think of curiosity as being curious to ask other people questions but your curiosity plays out in the number of changes in your career that you’ve made. Just that serial “have-a-goerness” about you. You live and breathe it and I love your challenge to push the boundaries, to ditch the straitjacket, to embrace the star jump. I’m all in. Thanks for energising me and everybody who’s listening to this.

Sally: Thank you for having me today, it’s been lovely and thanks for listening to some of my story.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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