Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Naomi Steer

Jenelle: Hi I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Season 3 of The Change Happens podcast. Conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way.

Today I’m joined by Naomi Steer, a philanthropist, business woman, activist, and founding National Director for Australia for United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees – UNHCR. It’s an organisation that she’d led for 22 years now. The UNHCR in Australia is a not-for-profit dedicated to providing end-to-end humanitarian support to refugees and other displaced and stateless people who are supported by the global UNHCR body. There are some pretty staggering statistics around global humanitarian contribution that Naomi has clocked up in her time with UNHCR. Last year alone, Naomi and her team raised $43 million, including $11 million for the people of Afghanistan and this year even more for the Ukraine. During her tenure they’ve raised over $382 million for refugees and displaced human beings around the world.

I learnt a lot from this discussion with Naomi. I learnt that more than 100 million people are displaced around the world and less than 1% will be resettled. Now that feels heart breaking to me but yet when you listen to what Naomi and her team have been able to achieve, and when you think about people’s enormous capacity to care, it’s actually so uplifting.

She also talks a lot about shifting the needle from protecting and assisting to empowering refugees. It’s an important shift for individuals in societies and one that creates great economic and sustainable benefit the world over. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Naomi Steer.

Well hi Naomi and thank you for joining me today.

Naomi: Hi Jenelle and great to be here.

Jenelle: I want to start with helping the audience understand a bit about who you are. Can you tell me about your early years and your background?

Naomi: Well I’m a proud Parra girl. I was brought up in Parramatta and it was an incredibly diverse background.

Jenelle: Yeh it would be.

Naomi: I probably say compared to a lot of the rest of Sydney and indeed Australia at that time. It was the 1960s and Parramatta was one of the main cities that received new migrants post war. So my little school, Parramatta Public Central was ahead of its time. Incredibly diverse. We had kids from all over the world. Sometimes it felt literally getting off a boat, arriving in the classroom without any English.

Jenelle: I imagine you would have felt more like a minority perhaps in that background? Did it feel like that?

Naomi: No I certainly didn’t feel like that but for me it opened up the world.

Jenelle: Right.

Naomi: There weren’t the support services that there are now for new arrivals in Australia for migrants or refugees and I was quite a chatty little thing! Always have been. I was always putting – my job was to go and sit beside the new girl or the new boy and talk to them. Poor things! I was always really interested in where they’d come from. World outside Parramatta.

Naomi: But I also think growing up in the 60’s. I don’t want to overstate it. I was only quite young then, but it was a time of a lot of change. I remember the referendum to grant Aboriginal people the right to be counted in the census as people which is extraordinary. My father had a property up in Qld – a soldier’s settlement property and he was appalled from that experience about the treatment of Aboriginals and really came back to Sydney and spoke about that a lot. So as a very young age we were really aware about inequities and unfairness and injustice very much driven by my parents.

Jenelle: What did your parents do to have that sense of social justice and equality?

Naomi: I think they were also people who not extraordinary for the time but very outgoing. They liked new things. They weren’t afraid of difference. I think that was really important and neither myself or my two sisters ever have been which I think has been marked by some of the things I’ve done. Also a very strong sense of standing up for yourself and others even in more small ways. I remember at school sort of early feminist I’d always been taught. Three girls in our family – no boys. Girls could do anything. I was often sewing – this was in Year 3. I could only do sewing or cooking. Both of which I was hopeless with and have continued to be hopeless at my whole entire life!

Jenelle: At least you’re consistent.

Naomi: I was keen to try my hand at woodwork, but I wasn’t allowed in the class cause I was a girl. I remember running a campaign around that and being quite unsuccessful at the time! It was an early lesson in equities that persist in many areas today.

Jenelle: I guess from that background you studied and got into your first job. I think it was with the Department of Foreign Affairs? You were a diplomat – saw you work in New York and India. What was that experience like for you?

Naomi: I never expected to be a corporate lawyer. I never wanted to be but I was really interested in the wider opportunities. As you say, I joined Foreign Affairs and my first posting was to the UN New York working on the Third Committee, which is the Human Rights Committee. I remember at 25 – I was supposed to be getting married Jenelle at that time and the Department had posted me.

Jenelle: Oh gosh.

Naomi: I rang up my Mother and said “I don’t think I should take the posting”. I’m supposed to be getting married. My Mother said “What are you even saying?” “You’re crazy, go!” Which I did and happily my fiancée – now husband.

Jenelle: Oh ok.

Naomi: Still waited. Was a happy ending to that. But that was fantastic. The Third Committee deals with issues around gender and refugees which was really the first time in my career that I came to that. A lot of the human rights issues that then continued to define my work in quite different areas but I think things that I was really interested in pursuing. Then I was cross posted over to India for 3½ years. That was an amazing posting. I learnt Hindi. I found out I was the last actually trained Hindi speaker. I got called up by Foreign Affairs a couple of years ago saying “We’ve just dug out your file and we’re restarting this campaign to get somebody else to learn Hindi and we found out you were the last one to ever use it, and learn it”.

Jenelle: Wow. I had no idea. I speak Hindi but I’m not going to pull it out on this podcast by the fear of embarrassing myself!

Jenelle: Offline let’s have a conversation!

Naomi: It’s a bit rusty now Jenelle.

Jenelle: Mine too.

Naomi: So we’ll see how we go. I think a lot of work about equity is also about inclusiveness. Sometimes just politeness – going to another country and speaking language as your official representative seemed to me like really, really important. That was – I loved India and worked on a lot of things around the anti-apartheid movement at that time and again human rights issues for the government. A really fantastic formative career years.

Jenelle: Tell me about the role of a diplomat? I find it quite an unusual role. I feel like I’m not quite sure how you would get your hands around explaining what it is exactly that you do and how you measure success as a diplomat? How would you describe it?

Naomi: Well, I think at its core and its sort of changed over the years with communications but certainly your role is to be a bridge either between two countries on a bilateral basis or to represent your country in a multi-lateral basis. It’s very much my work in India was about researching political developments so that our government could understand the politics. Making important connections so that there could be those relationships and dialogues. As a fairly junior diplomat – one of my really enjoyable roles was I managed the cultural relation program between Australia and India and through that I met many Indian artists, dancers and designers and the same with sort of wonderful Australian creative people, and of course just like sports, Arts are a really great way to connect countries and to create understanding. That was very much part of my role at that time as well as travelling around the country. Meeting people. Reporting on those conversations.

You are there to represent your country and to build those bridges and to build understanding.

Jenelle: As you say ‘bridging worlds’ is something that I think is quite a gift actually to see points of commonality and to respectfully highlight points of difference and have people embrace those things. How did you find yourself with the UNHCR?

Naomi: I decided after – because of the creative work I was doing, I decided I was going to be a film maker and I took a detour which surprised a lot of people. I became a union official with the Actors Union – Actors Equity when then merged with the journalists. I ended up as The Secretary of the Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance. Again, when you look at it, that was actually a fantastic opportunity. Of course, it was supporting our creative people and our writers, and freedom of press in Australia. So really important policy issues around Australian content and of course looking at the livelihoods of actors and performers which is still very close to my heart.

But I’d done that for a number of years. I worked in the trade union movement. Again this theme of bridging different groups. My job particularly at the time working for Unions NSW where I ended up was working around equal pay issues and forming alliances with a very broad range of women’s organisations across the political spectrum because no matter what your political point of view or persuasion women generally really shared common values. Particularly around pay equity and issues like that. I was instrumental I guess or my role was really creating panes around those which I did.

Then this opportunity came up to set up a new organisation for the UN Refugee Agency and part of my work with the unions had been reaching out/supporting migrant workers. Making sure that their working rights were protected. I also did some work for the International Labour Organisation. That had become a new area of interest and when I saw this opportunity to start this new organisation I thought ‘yep that’s got my name on it’. I guess the combination of international background but also quite pragmatic work supporting refugees and mobilising support in Australia for refugees and asylum seekers.

Jenelle: How would you describe the mission for the UNHCR? Whether it’s the mission of the organisation or your mission within that. How would you summarise that?

Naomi: Worldwide UNHCR the UN Refugee Agency is the lead organisation whose role which is mandated by the General Assembly is to protect and assist refugees and our role as what is in effect Australia for UNHCR – the private sector partner for UNHCR in Australia is to mobilise support across all different areas and in different ways to achieve that protection and assistance. I think it’s also now the reality that refugees can spend up to 20 years as a refugee. There’s the requirement not only to support emergency assistance which it often is. I’ve been in those situations – life and death situations literally for people when they flee with nothing but because of these protracted situations now around the world, the kind of support that we provide is longer term. I would see our mission now as to empower refugees themselves towards better futures.

Jenelle: In order for you to achieve that. I think it’s a really interesting and important shift in language there that you said from ‘protecting and assisting’ through to ‘empowering’. I think that’s really interesting. What has to happen to achieve that mission? Or maybe more pointedly what has to change? Whether it’s in people, business or government in order for you to achieve that goal?

Naomi: To achieve the goal of really empowering refugees so that they can live dignified independent and resilient lives, it is really a whole of society effort. I think that’s the shift that I’ve seen over 22 years in working in this area. It’s not just the job for government which traditionally it was seen in supporting organisations like UNHCR through funding which is obviously really important through resettlement of refugees through other initiatives like that. Very much is the role now and it’s seen as the role of the private sector to also support and private sector plays a really key role increasingly. You see that both in Australia and more broadly through employment initiatives, mentoring roles, training. I think whenever I speak to refugees – the 3 things that they would say are priority.

1. Security - once you’ve achieved that it’s
2. Education – that is the stepping stone and something that you cannot takeaway. You can lose everything else but you can hold onto your education, and the third thing which is to some extent harder is to have
3. Proper livelihoods and income – so you can support your family. You can have a sustainable future.

That’s where the private sector definitely has a broader role both in countries like Australia and also in the host countries like Uganda where we do a lot of work which hosts over 1 million refugees or Pakistan or wherever. I think certainly there’s been a big shift in the conversation around this and re-energising governments to engage. Getting governments to work much more closely with business and the private sector to bring about proper solutions for long term protracted refugee situations.

Jenelle: It’s a really interesting thought when you think about ‘whole of society’ effort coming together to change. This is a podcast about change and one of the aspects of driving change is thinking about stakeholder engagement. I think that you’re talking about lots and lots of different stakeholders when you are talking about the whole of society. You’re talking about engaging corporates. You’re talking about government. You’re talking about – presumably they’ll be entrepreneurs in there. They’ll be engagement of particular subgroups, women within that picture.

Can you talk us through the various stakeholder segments that have to come together or come together in different ways and the way that you think about them, and the way that you have mobilised each of those groups individually and then maybe in its collective form?

Naomi: A great question Jenelle because I don’t think I would be talking to you if we hadn’t actually – not only mobilise but in the very early days when I started Australia for UNHCR, it literally was a start-up. It was me and a filing cabinet. So I had to call on all those networks that I’d built over a number of years and suddenly having worked as a diplomat and worked in law, and worked in the trade union movement.

Jenelle: Yeh.

Naomi: But also worked in superannuation as a Board Member and Trustee for a number of years, suddenly all those networks made sense. People were incredibly supportive of me setting up this organisation. Providing a lot of pro bono support. Women have always been really important and I’ve worked with many women’s groups and I don’t want to stereotype women at all but I do find women will come together, be very practical, prepared to take on responsibility themselves. I think there is this certainly strong feeling amongst women of a sisterhood really whether it’s in our own community or more broadly. Women were always really important in our organisation in building support for whether it be events or donor base. We have right now a fantastic initiative called ‘The Leading Women Fund’ where women sign up to support refugee women in Jordan and you connect through an app. It’s actually been really groundbreaking because while we really encourage people to connect to refugees in our community, it is much harder to connect meaningfully to people many thousands of kilometres away. This app has been away that people are able to have conversations, share experiences around family, around challenges. It’s been a real game changer in that way as women have.

Initially business itself I’d say was a bit reluctant to engage in the refugee cause and that’s going back two decades because of course ironically when Australia for UNHCR was started (and one of the reasons the UN wanted to start this organisation in Australia at that time) was Australia was seen as a very positive place around refugee policy. We just had East Timor. We led the International Forces, Peacekeeping Force in East Timor. John Howard had the safe havens for refugees and all of that changed of course when the Tampa sailed into Australian waters and rescued over 300,000 asylum seekers but was refused the right to land in Australia.

So when we started there was tremendous interest in the issue but whether business itself wanted to engage with what had become quite a highly politicised cause. Two decades – that has really changed.

Jenelle: How and why? Do you remember moments of that narrative changing for business? Let’s take that stakeholder segment. What are the moments that have stood out and you’re like they’ve moved from being interested to taking action? Or seeing that they’ve got an active hand to play here. Do you remember anything in particular?

Naomi: Look I think it’s complex. I think when you wind in both refugees or asylum seekers and also into a broader migration debate, that actually is not a good thing. I think Australia has been built very much as a country on the migrants and very valued for that. I think from one perspective I saw business as being really kind of concerned at where dialogue was going around that which was now going into migration and of course impacting on potential labour market. I think from a very pragmatic reason business became involved. But also I think one of the things, and it’s lessened time and time again, when you have personal connection it really changes your view. It’s very easy for us to really stereotype people if we don’t know who they are, or if they’re just a number. They’re just one of 100 million people displaced. Well what does that mean to me? But when you have people in your workplace who are refugees and we do have a significant refugee population in Australia, when they’re standing up and talking about the rights of refugees and ‘look at me – what I contribute’. I think that really started also changing how business saw it.

I also think there is a generational shift. I would say I’ve seen that over the last 5 years. There is a whole new generation in Australia and I see that with my children who have gone to school, brought up in a much more diverse and inclusive society.

Naomi: And that’s just their expectation. It’s not something that they even would note. They seem themselves very much as global citizens. So the workplace now I think has shifted and business also recognises that and if they’re really going to be authentic in their commitment to diversity and inclusiveness (it’s not only seeing that in their immediate workplace) but really engaging in a broader and a positive way around it – around support for refugees and asylum seekers, and better policies and just policies around that.

Jenelle: You mentioned the apps that have been brought in that have fostered some connections. You’ve talked about the power of education. I’m interested in the multitude of ways that you have been going about to achieve the mission. So you raise a lot of money and that money might go towards apps or maybe there is broader use of technology – some education. What other things do you do? Is it job placements? Tell me about the various ways in which we can make that kind of empowerment real?

Naomi: For Australia for UNHCR our mission is very much to support refugees and displaced people who are offshore. As we are talking about this there is nearly 100 million displaced people worldwide. Less than 1% of that number will ever be resettled.

Jenelle: Wow.

Naomi: I would hope Australia will increase the numbers of people in can resettle. Clearly the majority of people worldwide are going to remain in situations as refugees in countries of reception, they’re often the poorest countries like Uganda or Pakistan or Turkey or Lebanon, clearly where people are fleeing from. People move generally to the closest country and I think I’ve probably spoken to hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of refugees and their dream is generally to be able to return to home if it’s safe to do so.

Unfortunately that’s proving much more difficult in many situations. So the kind of support that we provide is supported by donations largely is what’s called humanitarian assistance. That is simply lifesaving aid – food, water, shelter. I’ve been in those situations of people fleeing across the border from South Sudan – I’ve seen what they’ve been able to bring when their village has been attacked by militia. They’ve run into the bush. They’ve made it across the river into safety, into North West Kenya. You don’t bring your cooking pots. You don’t bring anything to sleep on. You don’t have blankets, there is nothing to shelter you. That very much is an important part of what UNHCR does and the support we provide. However, as we said, because refugees now they’re not just in that situation for a couple of months or a couple of years, it’s years and years, and years.

I’ve been visiting situations where I visited the grandmother, who is an old grandma, her daughter and a child has been born over that 20 year period. So the nature of support that we also give has evolved. You talk about education, that’s really important. We’ve funded many schools. Technology has played a really important part in that. I was in one refugee camp – Nakivale which has over 100,000 refugees. It’s been around for 50 years. It had six primary schools when I visited for that population. It had no secondary schools. We built a secondary school together with the local community which was also the Ugandan community.

Jenelle: Wow.

Naomi: Lucky to be able to go back there over the years and really see the community take ownership and I think that’s an important point. It’s not a one way street. Refugees and all people are highly capable people but they need the resources to achieve what they can and that’s how very much I see our role.

Naomi: With technology I think one of my favourite projects is a computer and technology centre we built in a deep field location on the border of the Democratic Republic of Congo in Uganda. It was in this large refugee settlement and there was nothing for the youth. So you might access primary school. You might get some kind of basic education but the refugee leaders had come to me and said “Look of course we need food, water, shelter but we also need some hope.” “We need to be connected to the world”. We ended up building this computer centre which had internet. It had an internet café. Through that project which had all sorts of issues, you could imagine building a tech centre in a remote part.

Jenelle: Yeh gosh.

Naomi: By UNHCR requirements and it had to comply with their green guidelines, so it had to be solar powered. We got these big solar panels made. Transported along what was this huge money track. We built it. Put the solar panels on, the roof collapsed!

Jenelle: No! Oh my God.

Naomi: Do it again. Anyway we worked through all of that. Had a lot of learnings out of this and it worked and once people had internet they were connected in a way that they never imagined but really practical outcomes. There is a fantastic site called ‘United Refugees’ which is effectively a Facebook for refugee community worldwide, where you can trace members of your family. So for the first time people in this remote refugee settlement could go onto this Facebook page. Say “Hello my name is John Moccondo. I separated from my family in Tanzania in 2012. My mother is this, this, this, does anyone know?” Through that so many connections were made.

Jenelle: Oh wow.

Naomi: And so many reunifications. So this simple project had actually started to give people computer skills, basic computer skills. Went on to have all these other literally life changing impacts. It was run by refugee leaders. Last time I was there they’d set up a bank. There was a refugee from Congo who’d arrived. He wanted to do some online courses. He’d put his resume in. The Refugee Chairman looked at it and said “Oh but he’s worked in a bank, we don’t have a bank here?” So instead of putting him in the pile to do the online, another online financial course, he met this gentleman. They worked out a business plan and they set up the first refugee bank in the settlement which is going great guns.

Jenelle: That is incredible. Incredible.

Naomi: I think the lesson for that is for us – you get the right project. You get the right people involved and in a way the sky’s the limit.

Jenelle: It’s a wonderful way to demonstrate that shift that you’re talking about from protection and assist through to empowerment. I think you’re tapping into the skills. Solving community problems. Empowering communities and individuals to realise potential. I think that’s fantastic. It’s really clear to me as you talk Naomi that it’s one story after another. Certainly if there has been one consistent takeaway for me with these podcasts that I’ve been doing for the last few years, that story telling is an incredibly powerful lever for driving change. We’ve had a lot of guests come in and speak about those critical stories that have been able to create moments of realisation and in some instances real movements of change.

Clearly your line of work is really focused on the stories of displaced individuals. Displaced families. Displaced societies. You’ve got thousands, and thousands of stories. Are there any that stand out in your mind as really being a catalyst for change? When you go ‘oh’. I know we’ve had lots of these things but this story, this moved the needle for us.

 
Naomi: Well I think one that shows absolutely the resilience of refugees and the power of women is a story I want to share around a woman called Immaculata. Immaculata was a member of a women’s craft group in Uganda that we started supporting about 7 years ago. They were a group of six women who were making craft. They’d self-taught each other and UNHCR and came to me and said “Look do you think you could work with this group to find a market?” Because that’s always the issue. There is thousands of these initiatives but where do actually get a sustainable market for the products that people are making?

So we started working with this group and we have about 80,000 or more regular donors now supporting Australia for UNHCR. That’s just here in Australia. We decided that we would give something to our donors as a thank you and we worked with this group to design a product. That went through all sorts of iterations and it ended up being a key ring. It was a learning process for both the women and myself because we used to get magnets made in China if you were a donor.

So I was having these discussions with the women who initially came up with slightly very high prices per piece. I said “look I’m going to be ordering 20,000 of these and I’m not going to hold you to the factory floor of where we get Chinese product made, but you’ve got to be competitive cause it’s coming out of my marketing budget.” They started to learn with me about business and we came up with a price point. We made these very big orders. The six women went onto train another 30 women in the group that ended up supporting a community of about 1,200 all through what was simply a key ring.

We’ve continued to work with those women, and they were super smart and that’s again what I see time and time again. People just need that kick start whether it’s a bit of investment or a market. One of the women who was Immaculata when I first met her, she was sleeping in the street. A number of the women were street urchins just selling second-hand goods in the street. They had very poor accommodation. She was actually sleeping the street with her children. But she would turn up at every meeting with me with the best outfit that she had. She was so determined to give this a go. Anyway, through the course of this she saved her money. She ended up buying a small grinding mill. She ended up employing two refugees in this small business and then as the project went on I had another meeting. I asked how Immaculata was and she stood up and she said “Now I’ve saved enough money to buy a block of land, and I’m going to be a ‘land lady’”, and everyone just burst out laughing! With pride, with whatever.

Here was a woman who three years before had been sleeping in the street now she was going to be a ‘land lady’ and that was through a very modest project but a good project. When I worked with the women I saw them about 3 months ago. I went the minute the borders opened I went back to see how they’d go. They’d had a really tough time in covid but we’re continuing our orders and looking to diversify and anyone listening to your podcast – who would want to be engaged with that? I’d really welcome that. She’s just one story of many people that I’ve met who when they’ve been able to have the opportunity and resources and support that we’ve provided have absolutely run with it.

Jenelle: Oh love that. Absolutely love that. Now you mentioned covid there Naomi. What was it like to be leading this organisation and cause through the pandemic? What did you see happening? Cause everyone had kind of their own issues to be dealing with. Their own personal health. The health of their families. Concerns about their own livelihood. What was happening on the global front when everyone was absorbed in what the pandemic meant for them and their immediate communities?

 
Naomi: I was actually up on the border in Ethiopia and Eritrea when the Australian Government started talking about closing it’s borders. When I’d left it had been declared a pandemic but I think as we see things now, official announcements were a bit slower than perhaps what was actually happening on the ground. My husband rang me and said “When are you coming home?” “I think they’re going to be closing the borders.” The next day we headed out to the smaller airport in Northern Ethiopia and a huge dust storm had come over from South Sudan that morning and closed the airport. The airport manager than said “It’s not going to open for another six weeks.”

Jenelle: Oh no.

Naomi: I was with a team of two others. We jumped in a mini bus with the locals and travelled another 4 hours to the next airport trying to beat the storm. Again it overtook us and then the airport manager said “If you go another six hours to Mekelle I will hold the flight if you can get there.”

Jenelle: Oh gosh.

Naomi: Sort of been quite calm at the beginning of this but by this time any pretence of patience or calmness. So we commandeered a car and spent the next six hours driving through the back roads of Ethiopia at night to make it to the airport – which we got there with 15 minutes they held the plane. As I got to Addis Ababa going down the staircase my colleague said “Time to get home Naomi”. He was an African photographer I work with a lot. “The world is closing down.”

Jenelle: Oh gosh.

Naomi: I just remembered that’s just how I felt. I got back into Australia on the Sunday. That night they closed our borders. The next morning in terms of our own preparation for how we managed it as Australia for UNHCR, my team had been doing an amazing job. I do think both for us as Australia for UNHCR and UNHCR globally, dealing with emergencies and the unpredictable situations are kind of what is our ‘bread and butter’. So in some ways we were set up quite well culturally if you like – both from a staff point of view and also assistance point of view to deal with that, because we often have to pivot from our BAU to deal with an emergency. From Australia UNHCR it’s fundraising, it’s communication, mobilising resources. From UNHCR it’s that immediate response within 72 hours.

Jenelle: Ok.

Naomi: So it’s quite an extraordinary organisation to deal with. UNHCR globally very calmly went around dealing with it. Remember they’ve dealt with pandemics of Ebola, Cholera. Communicable diseases are always a risk where you have these remote large-scale populations but also as a result, they’ve got really good protocols in place and systems in place to prevent that. So, they just went into that mode with the host governments. The big concern was that if there was an outbreak, that would decimate refugee settlements and camps. It actually didn’t happen and that’s a testament I think to the refugee communities and leaders who had to be their first line of defence and that’s really hard when you look at a sort of refugee population that Cox’s Bazar over a million Rohingya refugees - an overcrowded camp how do you socially distance. You know, you don’t have clean drinking water, or it’s not accessible, how do you wash your hands, how do you soap, but they did do it through an extraordinary discipline and you know awareness of communities. So this was really important and so a lot of the work we did around that time supporting them was getting PPE equipment in and basic stuff again, providing potable water, you know, so, and vaccinations and again often to very remote places.

So it was like an extraordinary and I think heroic operation by UNHCR and partners. You know, as I say, back in Australia, we were both fundraising for that and also grappling with our own challenge. When I arrived back from Ethiopia on the Monday, we have a lot of fundraising teams in the field. We call it face to face. We pioneered it in Australia. It’s been really important to our business model and building our sort of regular donors and one of the first decisions and it was a very hard one. I had to, you know, make a decision were we going to – you know what we’re going to do with these staff. They were casual staff. Many of them are students. But you know I took the decision to terminate them. So that was 40 people – that’s what I did on the Monday morning. We gave notice. Most I think other businesses didn’t and you know as just sort of again a testimony to the kind of staff that I have, you know, I got emails from people saying – look it’s been great working for you, I understand why you have to do this. You know, I really hope you survive, you know, as an organisation through it.

Jenelle: And how did you feel having to make that decision? Cause I mean you’re in the business of looking after people who are displaced and in some weird way there’s a displacement now that’s happening in your own organisation. How did that feel for you?

Naomi: Yeah we were very conscious and I was very conscious of the impact on individuals, not just the organisation. And so we reached out, and I reached out personally, pretty much to every one of those staff who’d been terminated to have a discussion with them and see if we could get them sort of alternative employment and you know through our network, some of which did. We also have a number of refugees who work with us who were leading the face to face campaigns in Victoria and Sydney and they of course couldn’t do their role. But we took the decision, exactly going to that, that we are a refugee led and support organisation and so we were not going to terminate them. We were going to work out no matter how possible that they could be redeployed. So that’s what we did. So we took them into other parts of the organisation and because they’re great communicators; that’s their job, so we had them working in Donor Care. We had them working in major donor philanthropic units and that went on for quite a long time, but I think for us it was really important as an organisation to demonstrate that commitment and to live that commitment and that’s what we did and I’m very proud of that.

Jenelle: Yeah very powerful. You know I’m just listening to you talk about – I mean yours is an organisation locally and globally that is built for crisis so as you say sort of kicked in with a bit of muscle memory of how do we as an organisation deal with a crisis. Obviously pandemic – we’re in a different stage of it now. We’re still in it, we still have it but we’re not in crisis mode and I can imagine that when in crisis people will respond, communities will respond, but perhaps when it goes into, we’re out of crisis mode and it’s just a – it’s another thing in the backdrop of what we’re dealing with – has that been harder to get sponsorships and donations in that period of time and what have you learned, have you got any insights about the human capacity to care. Does it run out?

Naomi: No, I don’t think it’s run out. And I don’t know whether we’re unusual, but both through this period of COVID and also previously during the GFC, our income actually grew. And I just sort of have found, you know, the generosity of people, really extraordinary. I think there’s probably a number of elements to that. We’ve never been afraid to ask and I think that’s my job. You know I do have, and probably some people listening to this would think, if Naomi Steer sends me yet another letter, you know. And I have friends who’ve been on the mailing list for years and sends sometimes quite rude messages back. And my donor care team comes in and I say don’t worry I know them. But – you know, it really is one of the fundamental things about working for a not for profit charity and in the philanthropic space you cannot be afraid to ask and we never have. But I also think during the COVID pandemic, people did really I think, appreciate for the first time in experience what it was like to be sort of isolated, cut off from other support, not to be able to see friends and family. So I do think it engendered a greater understanding and empathy.

You know our donors are extraordinary. During the fires and floods – I mean we’ve had sort of lived through you know a very difficult period here in Australia. It’s not just sort of COVID, it’s been one thing after another and of course we’re always very conscious of the impact on our donors. We went back to our donor base in postcode selected areas that have been worst affected by the fires and then the floods and we wrote to them saying that we would postpone their donations. And many people wrote back and said don’t, you know. And in one case this woman wrote me this letter saying you know my house burned down, I’m insured, I will rebuild, you know, $30 a month, if I can give that to somebody without any support I’m prepared to do that. Others, of course, said thank you so much for thinking of me. Yeah, it’s really hard at the moment. Yes I would like a payment holiday or I do need to do that. Of course we understand that.

And again, for us as an organisation, it’s not just about refugees, it’s actually being really genuine and - this is what I talk to my staff all the time about – when I send letters to donors I’ve seen those letters. I see pretty much every communication that goes out under my name because that’s really important to me. Because I’m asking people in my name to support this and I think that is paid back to us by donors, our donors, who really see that and feel that connection.

Jenelle: What have you learned about yourself as a driver of change over these last two decades?

Naomi: Oh look, the good and the bad. I’ll just talk about the good Jenelle.

Jenelle: Now I want it all, give me the juice.

Naomi: Look I think personally, and you know I think I’m probably somebody who feels quite comfortable with ambiguity and change. As I said sort of – and difference – that’s been something from early days that I’ve actually really embraced and I think in leadership and the sort of certainly and the new environments that we’re all working in, that’s really important and that’s really assisted me and that’s been great. I think also having – you know I had a vision from early days. When I was just sort of me and the filing cabinet as I say and you know what was – and no one had heard of UNHCR. It was very sort of – took us a number of years to find the business model that was going to work for us. So it was really touch and go there for a while. But I did always have this strong vision of what the organisation could be and would look like and that sort of really carried me through and also my board and other supporters.

And I think being really optimistic and again I think when we come back to COVID and I was used to dealing – am used to dealing with unpredictable situations – but I was really optimistic that we would come through that if we did the right stuff and we had the right processes in place, which we did. And I think that also sort of carried through to the rest of the organisation, you know. If your leader’s saying it’s going to be okay there’s – I mean there’s genuine in that and staff could come down and get on with the work they needed to do and be supported in. I probably, you know, and I wouldn’t say when I said this sort of not so good stuff, would probably – probably about seven years ago as an organisation, sort of came to – I wouldn’t say a crisis, but I think it happens for lots of not for profits, if not for all organisations. We’ve grown really quickly. But we were still a very small staff and a very small leadership team. And so I sort of had suddenly become the everything, you know. I was out there, you know, in the media, externally, globally, the Board, but also down in the weeds of the organisation which wasn’t good for anybody including me. And I think we were quite stressed overall as an organisation at that stage and wisely, you know, my Board at that point decided to invest in a broader leadership team and structures and processes and we brought in a change management consultant who was fantastic. And that took – that was really I think a good and very positive turning point for the organisation.

Now not all not for profits have that luxury to be honest and you’re always in this, you’re always trying to cut overheads, you want to maximise you know what you can transfer to, you know, your cause and mission. And so we’re always caught in that. But I think for every not for profit at some point if you’re going to be sustainable and long term, you have to work out how you’re actually going to have, you know, a robust management team and also robust processes. And so we put a lot of things in place and I think really set ourselves up for the future and for me I think I was you know, became a much better leader, and I – it just wasn’t about me anymore, we have a senior management group and that’s reflected back to the organisation and so, you know, we’ve become a different organisation in that process. And I’ve probably become a different kind of leader in that process too. Or a different style of leader. I think that’s one thing I’d say, Jenelle, over 22 years, we’ve never stayed the same as an organisation, nor have I in terms of how I’ve had to manage that either.

Jenelle: So if you were going to put words to the leader you have evolved to, what would be the from/to – might be putting you on the spot with this one – but if you had to describe the from term – leader was this to a leader that is now this – would you be able to put words to that?

Naomi: Well I don’t want to say too cliched, but I think it’s definitely true that I’ve moved from a very sort of hands on leader, you know, with the finger in every pie, and you know, dare I say, you know seeking to control and direct, to now somebody who is much more prepared to stand back, to delegate, to empower and I’ve really had to work at that. But I would say that’s where we are very much as an organisation and I’m really proud of that.

Jenelle: I was just going to say it sounds like a mirroring of the organisation. If you’ve moved from protection/assist to empower then you as a leader have done the same thing. So it’s really nice, mirrored evolution.

Naomi: That’s a really interesting insight. That’s a lovely insight actually. Thanks, Jenelle.

Jenelle: Its ok. Now, the places you’ve been and you’ve really outlined some incredible places, the stories you’ve heard, the experiences you’ve had, would often be incredibly heartbreaking and I imagine would take a cumulative toll on you, what do you do in a way of self care? How do you take care of yourself through this and recognise signs where you might need to do something differently for yourself?

Naomi: Well in terms of recognising signs, I am lucky that I have some really great colleagues who aren’t afraid to say – ahh Naomi I think you should just take some time out now. And I also have very honest family and a husband who – my family’s always been involved, incredibly supportive, come to every world refugee day. But you know my husband certainly is not shy about saying, you know, time to

Jenelle: We need those people in our lives though.

Naomi: Well – totally, totally. And I think it would have been sort of very difficult. In the early days, well probably around my 10-year mark, I did get really impacted cause I was out there, I was doing a lot of stories and research about sexual and gender based violence. So I was in the field interviewing women and it really did, at that time, take a bit of a toll on me, listening to their stories. And there’s so little support for refugee women in many of these situations. I was probably the person, for the first time, they’d shared some of this stuff. So I sort of felt an obligation to be there but also you know that feeling sometimes you think, well you know what can I do, how can I change. Is it just enough for me to be sort of bear witness or listen? And, after, you know, a particular time in one of the camps where this woman had told me, you know, the most horrendous story about sexual assault, rape and mutilation, in the context of war.

I flew out of Kenya and I thought I can’t do this anymore. Like this is really hard and I’m not the right person and I’m too sort of emotional about it. And suddenly I saw Mount Kenya sticking out of the clouds as I passed by and I thought, I know what I’m going to do, I’m going to climb Mount Kenya and I’m going to raise money for these women and you know off I went. Well you know came back, I was turning 50. I hadn’t done any real exercise forever. You know, I had announced this and it sort of took on a life of its own and suddenly I thought, oh my gosh I’m going to have to do it. So I joined this fantastic group called Wild Women on Top which was – no great name right. And

Jenelle: Yeah, I wouldn’t want to google that, don’t know what would come up as an image, but okay.

Naomi: But you know, it was a fantastic group of women from all ages, demographics you know, who are just interested in trekking. And so I joined up and honestly I think the first time I nearly sort of gave up because the women to me looked like amazons. I thought I was just going to go down to do a bit of – I don’t know – basic, I don’t know, kick boxing or a few push ups or something and we went on a 10km trek at night with headlights on and I sort of like – I remember coming back home almost just like sliding you know as my husband grabbed me

Jenelle: This is your self care routine. Let’s go back to my question. This is what you’re doing for self care? It sounds like absolute punishment.

Naomi: Well look why it was self care, cause it’s actually very mindful. You couldn’t think of anything else while you were doing this because you just had to think about survival right. I don’t want to fall down the mountain, or you know, the graduation for me was leading a group of women round rocks at Nelson Park at night which was like – I – for sort of – and it was great for me Jenelle because I felt sort of very confident in leading but not in a physical way, right. You know, so it was sort of good. And I loved it and it did give me a lot of confidence to go back to nature. So to me that’s really important. These days I don’t do anything as strenuous.

Jenelle: I was going to say what’s the micro – I’m sure you don’t climb Mount Kenya every time things get tough. So what’s the micro version of that mindfulness for you?

Naomi: Well, you know, it’s a bit – I would go back the other way. I go up to the Blue Mountains a lot, outside Sydney. I spend a lot of time up there, now on my veranda and watch the birds. So that’s sort of -

Jenelle: Getting back to nature and keeping it simple.

Naomi: Coming back to nature and something sort of very gentle and I love – I’ve sort of got a lovely little place up there and I you know I go up, I put the bird feed out, you know my lorikeets come and then my rosellas and then, you know, the Currawongs, and then the very naughty yellow crested galahs and you know it is so – that is, you know, very special to me. Yup, perfect way to unwind.

Jenelle: Sounds lovely. Now I’m going to ask you one last question before we move to the fast three. You’ve recently announced that you’re actually going to be departing Australia for UNHCR. Why and what’s next?

Naomi: Well it sort of goes back when I think about it a bit to what we discussed – the evolution of me and the organisation. And I, sort of - I do think you know the organisation that I have helped build is, you know, a fantastic organisation. But I’ve got a fantastic leadership team who are now you know when I look at them and I will sort of go into a meeting and they’re talking about the right issues. They’re identifying the right risks and opportunities. They’re looking at the sort of solutions. So I don’t want to say I’m really superfluous. This is the time. I’m really happy. It’s like – you know again I don’t want to sound paternalistic – but as a parent you want you’re sort of like baby or the kids to grow up and be you know be able to take care of themselves and be independent and I would say Australia for UNHCR and my fantastic leadership team with the support of the Board is really at that stage. So for me no better time – wow – you know we’re in that stage, it’s totally sustainable for me to be able to sort of really step away and sort of be proud of you know my contribution to that but really let the organisation go to its next chapter, you know, too.

Jenelle: And do you have a view of what’s next for you?

Naomi: I will always be involved I think in some ways, supporting human rights and refugees. In the immediate term I’ve been asked by the global national partner group; there are nine national partners worldwide, like Australia for UNHCR to act as an adviser to them, both, you know, individually but also as the group, to really amplify their voice and impact within UNHCR. So that’s something I’m quite excited by. We as national partners are a relatively new part of UNHCR and as I said I think there’s so much scope for sort of engagement with the private sector. Not only in terms of mobilising resources but changing the narrative, both here in Australia and globally around you know refugees and displacement. And so I’m really looking forward to that. And then I am just going to kind of take a break and see what’s next. And I’m actually really looking forward to that. But whatever I do it will be something – you know as I say about looking to bring about positive difference.

Jenelle: At the betterment of the world, I can feel it.

Naomi: I hope so. I hope so.

Jenelle: That’s fantastic.

The last three … three fast questions on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: So fast three to finish up here, Naomi. Firstly what are you reading or watching or listening to right now?

Naomi: I’ve been having fun watching “Succession” and other ones. But I did want to really promote this fantastic book called the “Next Great Migration” which is the story of movement on a changing planet by this wonderful author Sonia Shah. And what she really sort of posits is, migration is sort of almost in our DNA from you know when we first started in the Rift Valley and spread out. It’s really about the sort of human and natural world’s response to a changing environment. You know, human beings adapt, move, and are mobile and so it’s really a fantastic read to put sort of the current situation in that much wider context.

Jenelle: Oh that sounds like a fantastic recommendation. Thank you for that. And what is your superpower? As you know this can be something additive to the world or a useless party trick.

Naomi: Yeah because I’m a really bad over committer, which means I’m late for everything and you know I must say my fellow Board members, unawares, super will laugh at this because I’m always late and I’m always in trouble for it. But I think my superpower is actually speeding through orange lights without being booked.

Jenelle: You’ve got to be careful saying those things out loud. Once you declare it to be something then obviously it goes the other way. So please drive safely out there.

Naomi: I drive very safely. I do. I just know when the light is going to change. That is my superpower.

Jenelle: That is absolutely a new superpower. If you were going to put up a quote on a billboard, what would it be?

Naomi: I was thinking about this one. You know we all have the opportunity to make a difference, take it.

Jenelle: I love it. Absolutely love it. Naomi thank you for your time today. As I reflect on the conversation, I actually think your – I mean I think - I know you’re making jokes about the superpower and the useless party trick and I don’t want to take away from the amber light guesswork.

Naomi: You probably should.

Jenelle: You definitely have a superpower around bridging, you know, as a diplomat you bridged worlds, as a unionist, you bridged interests, as a leader of the UNHCR in Australia you’ve bridged causes to solutions, you’ve bridged capabilities to projects, it’s just an incredible gift that you have. And listening to you we’ve sort of really looked at the levers of change. You’ve talked about the power of personal connections. Making things real for people so that they feel inspired to contribute to a cause. You’ve talked about the generational shift and the positive force that that’s been in driving change. You’ve talked about the power of storytelling and driving change and I love – you know I don’t know Immaculata and the landlady but I’d love to know her cause she sounds fantastic and she’s an embodiment of what you’ve been able to achieve. Yours is the story of empowerment. Like I said not just in your organisation but also for you and I think your gifts in embracing ambiguity, embracing change, not being afraid of difference and not being afraid to ask, has put you in great stead to have achieved the unbelievable outcomes that you have. All you know with a clear vision ahead of you, underpinned by that level of optimism in the world and our immense capacity to care. So on behalf of the world, because that’s how I roll these days, I want to thank you for the incredible, incredible work you’ve done with the organisation that you’ve lead, and I want to wish you all the very best for this next chapter in your life.

Naomi: Lovely Jenelle and I really appreciate all those lovely words and I’ve really enjoyed our conversation today.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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