Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Mundanara Bayles

Listeners are warned that this podcast includes references to suicide and the names of some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who have deceased. If you or someone you know seeks mental health advice or help please call Lifeline on 13 11 14 or the Suicide Call back service on
1300 659 467.

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change – the good, the bad and everything in between, because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: Hi. I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to the Change Happens podcast. Conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. Today I’m joined by Mundanara Bayles the Co-Founder of BlackCard a 100% Aboriginal owned and operated Cultural Awareness Training Business and Consultancy. Focused on embedding cultural capability in corporations using Aboriginal wisdom and knowledge. She has over 18 years of experience working for Indigenous and non-Indigenous organisations and is a respected and well established business woman in Australia. Now, having said that, Mundanara prefers introducing herself by who she is rather than by her work. She can do that best herself. So let’s get into it.

Hi Mundanara, welcome to the podcast!

Mundanara: hi Jenelle and thank you very much for the invitation.

Jenelle: Pleasure. I’d like to start if I could by inviting you to do the Acknowledgement of Country.

Mundanara: Where I am today I’m on the Land of the Kabi Kabi and Gubbi Gubbi people on the Sunshine Coast. I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners here. I’d like to also acknowledge their elders, past and present and extend my acknowledgement of traditional owners from wherever you are joining us to listen to this amazing conversation, and really quickly Jenelle in terms of that acknowledgement – that was short and sweet. 

The Acknowledgement of Country however is a tradition that dates back tens of thousands of years in this country. It’s a diplomatic tradition. So a very important diplomatic protocol that has been practiced by Aboriginal people’s in this country, now known as Australia since the first sunrise you could say. So for non-Indigenous people the Acknowledgement of Country has got nothing to do with being politically correct. Political correctness came in yesterday as far as we’re concerned in terms of how long our people have lived in this country. See the Acknowledgement as an invitation for you to become part of the oldest living culture in world history and that’s what I love to share with people. You hear the Acknowledgement, you see it and you read it but I don’t think many people understand the ‘why’, and I hope after listening to today’s podcast that you feel more confident in carrying out that very important protocol.

Jenelle: Thank you so much for that Mundanara. I think that gives us pause to understand the ‘why’. On that note I wanted to acknowledge that I’m recording the podcast from the lands of the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation and so I too would like to pay my respects to their elders past and present. 

Thank you so much for that intro Mundanara. I’d like to start if I could by now helping the audience understand who you are. As I said I can give a bit of a short brief but I’d love for you to bring life into who you are and a little bit about your background.

Mundanara: I am a Biri-Gubba Gangulu women from my father’s side. Now the Biri-Gubba people are from North Queensland and the Gangulu people are from Central Queensland. I am a Wonnarua Bundjalung woman through my mother’s side. The Wonnarua people are from the Hunter Valley outside of Newcastle and the Bundjalung people come from around Byron Bay/Ballina.

So in terms of where I group up. I grew up on Gadigal country Jenelle. 

Jenelle: There you go.

Mundanara: So literally I go back to Redfern right not just Sydney. I grew up in Redfern. I’m from the block. Most people in Sydney know where the block is. I literally go back five generations to Redfern. My ancestor Sarah Waters in the 1840’s died in Redfern in Holden Street at 106 years old. She was in the newspaper of the time so she must have been well known by a lot of the earlier, white fellows or non-Indigenous people or settlers, whoever these people were in the 1840’s that were in Redfern must have known who my Great, Great, Great, Great Granny was because she made it into the newspaper. I can actually say that I come from a long line a strong Aboriginal women but we’re not Gadigal people that’s really important even though I can prove my connection to Redfern that goes back five generations, we’re not traditional owners. We have a historical association with the Redfern area and with the Aboriginal community there in Redfern. 

I grew up in Redfern with 8 sisters. I don’t have any brothers. My mother and father met in Sydney part of during the black civil rights movement if you want to call it that cause it was pretty similar to the US in terms in the 1960’s with Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. Those people inspired my family to actually get out on the streets and protest. This is where our protest movement started in Redfern. 

So I come from a politically active family. My father – and we’ll talk about him a bit later – my inspiration and why I do what I do. My Dad brought us to Qld in the 1990’s back to his country. I’ve been in Brisbane for 25 years. I met my husband, a Kiwi born Fijian. A beautiful man that I’ve been very lucky to share the last 13 years of my life with. We’ve got 5 children who are very proud Aboriginal Kiwi Fijian kids growing up now on the Sunshine Coast on Kabi Kabi country and like literally Jenelle I talk about this all the time – even though I’ve been in Qld most of my life, Redfern will always be my home. 

I lost my mother when I was 18. My mum had a heart attack at 45 and she literally died on the block in Redfern and as an Aboriginal woman her life expectancy 20 years ago was 55. So I was lucky to have my Mum for the first 18 years of my life but the connection I have with my Dad. My Dad passed 4 years ago. He was quite chuffed to reach 62 when he passed and we took his ashes back to his river, the Dawson River on Gangulu country. My 4 year old son, he was the littlest at the time, he literally said to his Dad, my husband who is Kiwi Fijian. He said “Dad are you going to come back to the Dawson River with us when you die?” And this is a 4 year old that already had a concept of life after death. And the moment my husband said (and I was listening), my husband said “Well if Mum is coming back to the Dawson River I’m coming with you’s”. And it was in that moment that I made a decision that I was going to go back to my Dad’s river but with my NSW jersey on!

That’s a lot about me Jenelle.
 
Jenelle: There is a lot to unpack in that. Actually really interesting. I mean there is a real sadness I feel about you feeling privileged to have had your Mum around for the first 18 years of your life. It really speaks to the life expectancy. It’s something that a lot of us non-Indigenous folks would take for granted. The fact that you think about that and relish that “Well I got to have her for 18 years”, really speaks to a stark difference.

I’m also interested in your son’s comment about life after death because for me it also speaks to cultural identity. I’m interested in understanding what cultural identity means for you personally and for your children intergenerationally. Now you mentioned you grew up with 8 sisters in Redfern. You inherited traits of Wonnarua Bundjalung people on your Mum’s side. You’re a Gubba Gangulu people on your father’s side. Married to a Kiwi born Fijian and you have 5 children. 

Now for me I’m an Australian born Fijian Indian and I’m married to a Kiwi born Scottish man and we have 2 children. We always get a bit stumped when people say “What do you identify as?” “What do your children identify as?” “What’s your ethnicity?” 

I’m fascinated in your views on cultural identity. 

Mundanara: You know what Jenelle. I did a live video for the first time in my life the other day on Instagram because I walked out of a Rabbitohs game. I’m a diehard South Sydney Rabbitohs girl. Born and raised on the block.

Jenelle: I won’t hold that against you! But ok!

Mundanara: That’s the only team you’re allowed to follow other than the Redfern All Blacks. So I walk out of the Rabbitohs game with my 4 year old little Tiger Lilly and my son [39.28] my eldest. I met my husband had the two older kids, we had 3 together. 

I walk out of the game about 10 minutes early and I just bought the latest merchandise from Clothing the GAPS – kind of changing the narrative. They are amazing with their merchandise in starting these conversations through fashion right. Couldn’t be more proud to chuck on my ‘Always Was, Always Will Be’ long sleeved t and my trackies. 

Anyhow walk out of the game and these two older white Australian men kind of started to abuse me and I kept walking. They were quite intoxicated. They wasn’t happy about my red, black and yellow t-shirt that had ‘Always was’ on the front in big capital letters and my son asked me if were they talking to Tiger Lilly. I said “No they wasn’t talking to her, they were talking to me”. He said “What were they saying to you?” I said “Don’t worry [38.31]” and I kept walking. He said “Mum, were they swearing at you?” I said “No they wasn’t swearing they just were really unhappy reading my t-shirt”. 

And Jenelle his response absolutely broke my heart. He said “Mum you embarrass me when you wear this stuff”. “It’s embarrassing”. Why did she even buy it? Not only are we supporting an Indigenous business where 100% of their profits go to health programs across Victoria. Any how I said to my son “You know what let’s go onto Instagram and let’s talk to people about how this t-shirt makes you feel.” So we had a conversation on Instagram about it but I talk about this every day for a living through Black Card training and I know that my children are not as proud as I am about being Aboriginal because of the neighbourhood that we live in. 

So identity to me is even more important that I’m growing up my children in a very white neighbourhood. A very white neighbourhood. Identity to me growing up – I was at the first protest in my mother’s belly. At the 1982 Commonwealth Games in Brisbane I was in my mother’s belly then. 

Mundanara: So I was kind of born for this life that I live now. I’ve got this fire in my belly that comes from not just my Mum but my Dad as well. Growing up in Brisbane since I was 11 amongst a very big multi-cultural community and most of the time a very accepting community. Then we moved here 9 months ago and it changed really quickly in terms of when I leave my front door here I have to think about what I’m wearing. So if I’ve got Aboriginal earrings from Haus of Dizzy or the Koorie Circle, I take them off. If I’ve got a t-shirt on that I’ve been wearing that may say ‘Always Was, Always Will Be’, or ‘Not the Date to Celebrate’, I literally get dressed before I go and pick my kids up because I know how it makes them feel because they are I think the only Indigenous family at their school. The only Black kids at their school.

So yeah identity to me is a conversation every single day. I sometimes think that for my children’s sake not to be too loud and proud about being Aboriginal in this neighbourhood but at the same time people need to get used to us. You know what I mean?

Jenelle: Yeah I do.

Mundanara: They need to get used to an Aboriginal family living in Mount Coolum. We’re not going anywhere and I need my children to grow up and feel proud of their identity and that to me is probably now what I’m focused on. Every single day is to make sure that my children hopefully by the time they reach their teenager years are more confident in their cultural identity because I can tell you now Jenelle – and you probably have some similar experiences growing up in this country. I hated, hated my name Mundanara. At least you got an English/Anglo Saxon name. 

Jenelle: That was by design. My parents knew that if I had an Indian name back when, I won’t date myself but there’s multiple, multiple decades in there, and they said “You won’t survive in this country”. By brother was born 8 years after me and his name was Raj. So my parents recognised that the country had moved on and could accept a name more readily than they could when I was born. 

But I do think with your children and you, you were born with that passion clearly and that role modelling but for what it’s worth I think that it’s a passion that I have learned for the longest time when I was young. I didn’t like the difference. I worked hard to make sure I blended in, just like your children are wanting to do. Not wanting to stand out. Don’t want to be embarrassed. But I guess they will find their voice Mundanara particularly with your role modelling and your nurturing of the safety around that. But I’m sure the passion will come.

Mundanara: Yeah. 

Jenelle: I want to talk about Black Card. You’ve mentioned it. Now that’s the company you co-founded with Dr Lilla Watson. That was all about spreading awareness and preventing the future of Aboriginal generations from suffering. Tell us about the principles behind Black Card?

Mundanara: In terms of the word ‘suffering’. You know what I would say cause I’ve got this strength based approach with everything that I do Jenelle. So what I would say “Is to spread awareness to arm our young people with cultural knowledge so that they can succeed in this society that was never set up for us to participate in.” 

So to arm our young people with cultural knowledge and also to educate the wider community about the oldest, continuous surviving culture in world history. Basically when you think about how long we’ve been in this country, we are the earliest example of a human government then there anywhere else in the world.
 
Mundanara: Over 250 different countries in this Island Continent now known as Australia, that spoke just under 1,000 different languages. So we’re all different people and there is this myth that indigenous people are one people and we’re not even the same as the other recognised group – the Torres Strait Islander people are Melanesian. In Aboriginal society male and female complimented each other. One would never dominate the other. So it’s all about balance. It’s got nothing to do with equality. 

So these are key features of Aboriginal society that we are now I guess educating the masses in this country. But we set up this organisation to educate people in this country about the tens of thousands of years of knowledge that comes directly from this land. That’s what Aboriginal Terms of Reference refers to. Western ideologists which is our Parliament, our Government, our laws, our educations, those institutions are all based on Western ideologies. They have come from somewhere outside of this country that has now been imposed on us as Aboriginal people. 

That’s what we want to share with people. The Aboriginal world which is very different to the Western world and how Aboriginal people are navigating or walking in two worlds and most people are walking in one. 

But you know how do we push these two worlds closer together? Because one is not better than the other. They’re both equal and if we are to thrive in this country we first need to arm our young people with cultural knowledge so that they can succeed in this Western world but on their terms of reference Jenelle. That’s what is important to me. That we don’t have to leave or feel the need to leave our cultural identity at home when we turn up to the workforce, when we turn up to work. That we can bring our full self to work. That our Aboriginality adds value to who we are and what we bring to the workplace. I hope one day that I can be confident that my children proudly identify as belonging to the oldest living culture in the world and to be proud of that.

Jenelle: What does it feel like Mundanara to walk in two worlds? What’s that like?

Mundanara: It’s exhausting. It’s challenging. Sometimes you feel overwhelmed that people don’t understand why you go to so many funerals. Why so many people are committing suicide. The fact that Aboriginal youth, literally the highest in the world to commit suicide. One Aboriginal kid every week commits suicide. I’ve buried 8 children in the last 10 years at the Murri School here in Brisbane. A school I graduated from that I’ve now been a Board of Director for the last 7 years. I’ve buried 8 children to suicide from one school. Not in the Kimberley’s. Not in the remote communities. In Brisbane. 

To explain that to your Manager in an organisation, to explain why there is constant sorry business. Why there is constant grief and loss and therefore trauma, my people are dying so young. My mother at 45. Her sister at 30. Her brother committed suicide at 45. So most people on my mother’s side, most people have not celebrated their 50th birthday. Most have died before 45. The median age for an Aboriginal man and an Aboriginal community in Wilcannia in NSW in terms of life expectancy is 39. We know this. We grow up in this but when we go the workforce or into the workplace, this is all new information for a lot of our colleagues and for a lot of non-Indigenous Australians. It’s not their experience.

Jenelle: It’s not their experience and it’s so hard. You talk about that ‘sorry’ business and I feel it as well at work and you’re like “I know that person was already off for somebody, how many people can there be in their family?” “How many people?” and that is the reality isn’t it?
 
Mundanara: Constant. If we understood the impacts of colonialism. The impacts of past Government policies that literally in placed the 1970’s. The last recorded Aboriginal child that was taken from a hospital in Darwin was in 1980. 

One of my staff, Mike Mike Salbro, he was forcibly removed. He was stolen from Cherbourg in 1979. Jenelle, he was fostered by a Swedish couple where he then grew up in Sweden from the age of four and for the first 20 years of his life he thought he was an African man living in Sweden. No idea that he was an Aboriginal man from Cherbourg. 

This has led to the trauma and when we go back on my mother’s side, five generations of women were forcibly removed. I am the first generation Jenelle. I am the first generation that wasn’t taken from my family. I had the privilege of growing up with my own Aboriginal mother and Aboriginal father. I had the privilege of growing up with my own siblings. I had the privilege of growing up in an Aboriginal community and socialising amongst Aboriginal people and family. A lot of Aboriginal people can’t say the same. 

My mother didn’t know her country. My Nan didn’t know her country and the impacts of that have come down the generations. Have come down the lines and there is a lot of research on trauma and they refer to it as Intergenerational Trauma. That trauma is actually in the DNA. Right it’s in the DNA of a child, an unborn child. So my father’s trauma, the fact that his Grandfather, my Great Grandfather Sam Watson, he was literally taken away in the middle of the night. White pastoralists from North Queensland used to go around in the middle of the night and steal these Aboriginal boys from their families and throw them back into, he described as a ‘Horse and cart’. They were thrown in the back of a horse and cart and my Great Grandfather Sam never saw his Mum again. 

That’s what we need to acknowledge in this country. We need to acknowledge the history of this country. The history that is in people’s living memory. It’s not that long ago. People seem to think Jenelle that “Oh look get over it happened 200 years ago”, “Well it’s not my fault”.

• How are we going to achieve reconciliation without any truth? 

Truth telling is integral for reconciliation in my opinion.

I’m part of the 3% of the population – I talk about this every day. The 3% of the population trying to do the heavy lifting – to bring about positive change.

Jenelle: Let me just stay on that for a moment. Obviously this is a podcast all about change. 

As you just said then you’re part of the 3% of the population that we are talking about here. Driving change for the rest – the 97%. 

How do you go about doing that? It seems like a mammoth (and obviously it is) – it’s been happening for generation after generation. 

With so much change to be driven, where do you start?

Mundanara: I constantly have no voice as you can hear today.

Jenelle: I like that husky voice but I guess it’s probably a bit worn out.
 
Mundanara: It’s worn out. Definitely worn out. I cancelled everything. I had a game last night to go to Patty Mills, representing Australia in the basketball at the Olympics. His Dad lives around the corner from me, his Mum and Dad. They said “come and watch Patty”, I said “Uncle I don’t want to be rude but I need to save my voice for work on Monday”. So on the weekends I try not to do too much because I know that I am preserving my voice for the work that I do.

It’s exhausting Jenelle to constantly talk about.. It’s not about history. I’m bringing my own life experience to the workshop. When I deliver Black Card training, I’m bringing my life experience. My family’s experience to that session. So it’s triggering. It’s traumatic. I feel traumatised nearly every workshop after it I have a cry literally. I can’t help the tears. Sometimes I cry in the workshop. I can’t hold back the emotion. Sometimes I feel that emotion just takes over me. 

I think that to be able to create change the only way we can do it is if we can actually come from that human level. Human to human. Not from a text book. Not from just reading PowerPoints and statistics. But we need to bring and draw from our own experiences and to be able to share that with people. It’s take a toll on us, it does. I’m being honest here.

Jenelle: Yeah I can hear that. 

Mundanara: That’s why we’re creating the change. That’s why Black Card is having the success that we’re having. If you want to call it success, the fact that we’re rolling out our training to some of the biggest corporations in this country. I wouldn’t say it’s success but I would say we’re having a positive impact.

Jenelle: It’s certainly getting noticed at some of the highest levels, that’s for sure.

Mundanara: Yeah and I think Jenelle that it’s up to the 97% of the population. Now you know what you know. Now that we’ve shared with you what you didn’t learn at school. 

• What are you going to do? 
• How are you going to support us in creating this change? 
• What conversations are you going to have with your family? 
• What conversations are you going to have with your children? 

I feel that people need to see this as their own personal responsibility. If you live in this country and you call this place home, then you are entitled to know the true history of this country. 

And it’s not the Aboriginal history Jenelle. I’m sick and tired of people referring to the invasion of this country. The slaughtering of our women and children. The massacres. I lived down the road from Murdering Creek. 20 minutes from my house is Murdering Creek. There are 17 Murdering Creeks in Australia. There is Massacre Waterfalls in NSW. Black Shoot Creek at Burleigh Heads at the back of the Gold Coast. Slaughter Falls at Mount Coo-tha in Brisbane. You only have to go to Google right to found out Australia’s violent history. 

But to meet an Aboriginal person such as myself and to hear these stories, in some instances first-hand stories, well that to me I would say changes people, and it changes people, I hope, for the better. 

Jenelle: Mundanara you mentioned at little earlier that the Torres Strait Islanders are a different group to the Aboriginals with a different story. I want to talk for a moment about the importance of understanding and recognising diversity within Indigenous communities and not making the assumption of one humungous group. 

Jenelle: Ours is a nation made of up many Aboriginal countries where there are different customs. Different languages and as you said different lived experiences. So when you share your own life experience it’s different to that of others. 

Is that something that is front of mind for you? When I think about all the work you are doing with Black Card. How do you strike the balance of being a voice for many whilst also respecting those distinctive experiences of different communities? 

Mundanara: That’s a really good question Jenelle because we are made up over 250 different countries. I use the comparison with Europe. There is about 49 different countries across Europe and here in this country now known as Australia, there is over 250 different countries and I always say that I’m not a representation of nearly a million different people from over 250 different countries. I’m one person and I’m definitely on a mission to try and create change within my life time and do the best that I can so that my kids have a little bit easier. Then their kids have it a little bit easier. 

I would say that it’s really important to understand that we are all different. That you don’t put us into the box as one people – “Oh there Indigenous – their First Nations”. “She’s Aboriginal”. We’re all very different people. Not all of us have had the privilege of growing up with our Aboriginal families, therefore a lot of Aboriginal people have been disconnected from their Aboriginal culture. I guess there is a lot of those people that have now found their Aboriginal families and some have been able to integrate back into their communities and be part of those Aboriginal communities. Some have struggled. So there is a lot of Aboriginal people that have had very different experiences. 

So yeah I feel that at Black Card I’ve got an opportunity to at least explain and educate people about a lot of the basics. A lot of the foundational knowledge. About some of the key differences like you said – the other Indigenous group, other Torres Strait Islander people.

We’re all different. We have to be mindful that we don’t ask people to speak on behalf of an entire population or race of people. I can only talk to you from my own experience. I draw from my Aunt Lilla Watson. My Aunt Lilla was the first Aboriginal lecturer or probably one of the first because there could have been other Aboriginal people employed at UQ back in those days but they didn’t publicly identify. 

Jenelle, that’s important even – just to touch on that for a moment. The fact that in 2021 there is still a lot of Aboriginal people that are working in organisations like at EY and all different organisations that don’t publicly identify. 

Jenelle: Oh absolutely.

Mundanara: That don’t tick the box when it comes to the census. My Nan used to talk about not ticking the box and she actually said this to me Jenelle, she said “If you tick the box you don’t know whether or not your children will be taken from you.”

That happened to my Nan. When she is was free – and I’m talking about free from being a domestic. Being sent out to work from the age of 10. At about 21 years of age my Nan was free – which means the government was not controlling every aspect of her life as an Aboriginal woman. 

I found out later in life (cause she told me), that how she was able to live freely, she assumed the identity of an Indian woman, Jenelle. My Nan identified as Indian to survive. To keep her children. To be able to work. To marry the love of her life – my Grandfather who I never got to meet, an Irishman. 

Mundanara: She had to do what she could to survive. So she outsmarted authorities but at what cost?

She disconnected and cut all ties to her family – to her Aboriginal community in Redfern. Mentioning the word Aboriginal was like a dirty word to my Nan. You never spoke about it and when you did you found yourself in a very heated argument with her. 

So yeah I think things are slowly changing because I now embrace my name. Mundanara used to make me feel very uncomfortable and I would say even ashamed at times to be Aboriginal around my friends at school. Now that I’m in my 30’s I’ve become much more confident in my own identity and Black Card definitely has been a big part of my own journey – to embrace my own Aboriginality. 

15 years ago Jenelle I would still say that I would prefer to be called ‘Mara’ and I would introduce myself as Mara.

Jenelle: Wow. Mundanara is such a beautiful name. I can really relate to it. My middle name is an Indian name – Sangeetha. Oh my God I’d never tell anyone that. It was just Jenelle! That was all there was to it. But now with time, experience and understanding we embrace these things. I think that is our power. That is our strength. Our strength is in the diversity and those life experiences that we have.

I want to talk about story telling. I’ve been doing a lot of these podcasts now and certainly I’ve spoken to many, many Change Leaders across all sorts of.. big Corporate CEOs, entrepreneurs and they all speak to storytelling as being a powerful lever of change. Clearly storytelling is inherent in Indigenous communities. It is a natural way of teaching and communicating across multiple generations since 60,000 years ago.

Can you share with me how you’ve been able to integrate storytelling into the work that you educate non-Indigenous people to understand why we need to change.

Mundanara: Definitely. We are the oldest storytellers on the planet. I can definitely say that. That is a strength isn’t it? To be able to tell stories. I come from a long line of storytellers as well so it’s in my blood through my Grandmother Maureen. 

But storytelling is an important feature of Aboriginal culture. In all of our languages Jenelle, there is no word for ‘why’? So just imagine a whole society bringing up young people and they’re not encouraged to ask ‘why questions’. 

So from a very young age you’re observing everything. You develop these very keen skills or powers of observation. You’re watching. You’re looking. You’re learning. You’re listening before you talk. Before you speak. 

So in terms of growing up in this Aboriginal society, when you do ask a ‘why’ question today, especially with older Aboriginal people, you’ll probably get a story. That story leads to understanding, and that’s much more important from our perspective. 

In Aboriginal child rearing practices, we are teaching our children how to think versus what to think. We’re growing up independent thinking, autonomous beings versus an individual. The Western world is a highly individualistic society. The Aboriginal world is a group based society. 

When I think about it, Aboriginal people have got this great understanding of what it means to be human. 

Mundanara: We literally – if you think about psychology – well psychology is our forte. We’ve been here for so long we figured things out a very long time ago. How to have a stable, efficient society that would last you tens of thousands of years without the need for armies. Without the need for prisons. Without the need for police and we never invaded our neighbours in our whole history of living in this country.

For me, sharing my story, who I am, where I come from, where I grew up and then sharing parts of my family background, my ancestry and stuff like that, we can connect with each other on a much deeper level. When I make those connections on that level, then I start to feel that I’m achieving what my people have set out to achieve. 

It’s building relationships with each other so we can understand each other and hopefully with that common understanding of who we are, as Aboriginal people, what our experience has been for us in this country, I hope would give more Australians respect us and respect what we’ve been through and respect how we’ve been able to live in this country for as long as we’ve been. I want all Australians to fill proud that they live in a country and they can be part of the oldest living culture in world history. Why can’t we all celebrate that together?

Jenelle: Look I’m with you and actually as you were speaking Mundanara and thinking about yep the oldest living community. I’m in the business of change leadership and one of the words perhaps that comes up most frequently is ‘resilient’. Resilience is the attribute – you know we talk about vulnerability resilience, surely the oldest living community in the world knows a thing or two about resilience. What do you think it is? Speak to me about the resilience in the Aboriginal community.

Mundanara: Well you can go back to the fact that we lived through two ice ages and to be able to adapt to the environment through those times of change. The fact that we survived colonialism. We survived the simulation policy. We survived the stolen generation, the forceable removals. Then there is a motto – we have survived. But before that we used the term that we thrived and we have thrived over the 140,000 years of living in this country. It wasn’t about surviving. We knew the land so well that it gave life to us and it kept us alive at the same time. 

So this kind of resilience comes from I would say over tens of thousands of years of living in this country and adapting to all of the different change that our people have seen over many, many generations. 

The resilience that I talk about comes from the fact that my mother raised 8 daughters without ever knowing what it was like to be loved. She had never experienced love. She had never been held tight and hugged or cuddled and told that she was loved. My Nan never experienced love. She had never experienced what it was like to be held by her mother. So when I think about the fact that I was raised by these strong women who loved us unconditional despite the fact that they weren’t shown love. I draw from their resilience. I draw from their strength and what they went through for us to have the opportunities and to live the life that I live today. 

I would say it’s emotional resilience Jenelle that we need to kind of grow or develop within our children because emotional resilience is about how do we bounce back from every single funeral that we go to. How do we bounce back from every death in custody. How do we bounce back from every child that has been forcibly removed from our families today but it requires a whole lot of emotional resilience because at the end of the day, I’ve got 5 children that rely on me. To put food on the table and I’ve got to keep on developing my own emotional resilience to support my children because like I said at times I get so overwhelmed with the situation. 

Mundanara: The position that we’re in as Aboriginal people today. It’s overwhelming. If I think about and dwell on it too much Jenelle I literally feel that I can’t even get out of bed some mornings. So you’ve just got to draw strength from somewhere and to keep thinking about my Mum and my Nan. My old people and my ancestors and what they had to go through and we’ve got nothing really to complain about when I think about their experience. 

Jenelle: Mundanara it is overwhelming. There’s so much in there to be done and as you said it can be really triggering to talk about this with such heart and really allowing yourself to go there as you do each and every day. I know you have focused on a couple of areas specifically, Raise the Age and Free the Flag, how and why did you decide to focus your efforts on those two initiatives?

Mundanara: The fact that I can’t have an Aboriginal flag on my staff uniform without paying a non-Aboriginal person a licence fee. That to me does not sit well with me because if every Australian had to do the same, in terms of pay a non-Australian, someone in another country, had to pay for the right to use their flag, then….

Jenelle: There’s something very wrong about that.

Mundanara: Mate, yes exactly. The fact that the Aboriginal flag is the only flag in the world that’s privately owned by an individual, because Thomas Harold sold the licence, the copyright to the flag, and not just to any individual Jenelle, but a corrupt individual. And this is why I’m on this mission as well. To start these conversations that we need to have with the broader community because you have the voice.

There’s power within the 97% of you to help us get our flag back. That’s why I’m passionate about the flag, because I want to wear my flag, in its natural form, I don’t want have to mutate the flag to be able to get away with copyright laws, so Free the Flag’s really important to me. Because the flag, you know when the 1982 Commonwealth Games, Jenelle, when my Mum and my Dad were protesting then. It was against the law in the state of Queensland to have an Aboriginal flag. Did you know you could go to prison over the flag?

Jenelle: No.

Mundanara: So they’ve stopped us for a long time from publicly being proud of our Aboriginality with that flag. So the flag means a lot to me.

In terms of raising the age, the fact that Australia is one of four countries in the world that lock up children from the age of 10, despite the United Nations, despite International Standards which is 14, the Northern Territory government recently voted against raising the age of holding a child criminally responsible. So for me that’s important. Because I’ve got two little boys. One’s nine and one’s 11. And the thought that they could be sitting in a Youth Detention Centre, I’m not going to lie, it does keep me awake at night.

Some nights I keep thinking about the fact that a lot of families have got their babies in these Detention Centres and Dr Tracy Westerman, one of the leading Indigenous Psychologists in this country, she’s got the Westerman Institute in WA. She has also been a big supporter of raising the age. But she’s got all the scientific evidence to back up that a child at 10 does not know, in terms of fully understanding the consequences of their actions. At 10, compared to 14. Definitely passionate to have as many Australians sign those e-petitions and campaigns and support us.
 
Jenelle: Fantastic. Mundanara, lots of stuff to do here, no question about it, you’ve been working in this space much of your life as have your father and broader family members, what’s some of the positive changes that you’ve seen and that you’re proud of?

Mundanara: Wow, where do I start? There has been a lot of positive change. And that’s why at The BlackCard, it’s so important that we start from a strength based approach. That we draw from our strengths and not our weaknesses, because we’re not all victims. We all don’t need help. And I think sometimes the government, it’s kind of like they’ve put us under this one big giant umbrella and called it Close The Gap. And we’re all these victims and we all need help. And that’s not the case at all. The fact that I’m at University. I’m studying my MBA at Monash Uni. That’s the first MBA in Indigenous Leadership in the world. To me that says a lot about progress in our universities.

Jenelle: Yep.

Mundanara: The fact that I do guest lectures and I can now invoice people for my time. I used to do it for free, in the last 10 years that I’ve been a part of BlackCard, that people are actually asking me “what do you charge?”, “what’s your rate?”, “we have a budget”.

Jenelle: And they value that knowledge and education and cultural capability training.

Mundanara: Thank you, thank you. That more and more Australians are valuing our knowledge. Because our knowledge is not just “how do you interact and engage with Aboriginal people” at BlackCard. We’re educating you about cultural capability. That’s a skillset. To be able to engage and interact with the other 300 different nationalities that live in this country today.

So, to me, there’s been a lot of change because more organisations have got reconciliation action plans, RAP. So they’re committed to reconciliation. And that RAP holds that organisation accountable. So I like that accountability aspect of a RAP, but a RAP’s not for every organisation, and I know that.

Lastly, I just want to say really quickly that the fact more and more Australians are acknowledging traditional owners, it just fills my heart with a lot of joy. Like I literally, every time I hear an acknowledgement, this smile lights up my face and I just go, isn’t it amazing. Because the acknowledgement of traditional owners is unique to this country. They don’t do it in Canada, they don’t do it in America with the native Americans over there, it’s unique to Australia.

So to me, the more and more that we have non-Indigenous Australians participating in our culture, that’s progress, that we’re heading in the right direction Jenelle.

Jenelle: Fantastic. Now I’m going to start to wrap this up here. So I’d like to ask you Mundanara, if I could, for one tip or piece of advice for the business community who are all listening to this. So when it comes to better supporting Indigenous matters, what’s one piece of advice you’d give them?

Mundanara: I think to really learn and educate yourself about the foundational knowledge of Aboriginal society. The fact that we’re a group-based society, a non-competitive society and a non-ego based society. If you can understand some of those core principles that we refer to as Aboriginal Terms of Reference, that to me would put you in good stead for engaging with Aboriginal people, Aboriginal colleagues, Aboriginal businesses and Aboriginal communities.

Mundanara: To see us as people first and foremost. To be able to build a relationship with us based on who you are, and not get down to business straight away. The agenda’s there but that should be second, that to me probably is the biggest piece of advice. Build relationships. Because once you invest in that relationship, business will take care of itself.

Jenelle: Fantastic.

The Last Three – three fast questions on change to finish the podcast.

Jenelle: I’m going to finish if I can with a Fast Three. A bit more on a light hearted note, although it depends on your answers.

I’ll start with, what are you reading, watching or listening to right now?

Mundanara: What am I watching? Survivor!

Jenelle: Me too.

Mundanara: And the reason that I’m watching Survivor is Endemol Shine Productions is one of our clients that we’ve been rolling our training to and I was one of their Indigenous advisors for the set of Survivor. So there you go.

Jenelle: Oh wow, fantastic. Ok, what is your super power? Now that can be something that’s additive to the world or a useless party trick.

Mundanara: I would say that I’m known as the Queen of relationships.

Jenelle: Ok well I can vouch for that too. And if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be?

Mundanara: What kind of honourable ancestor will you be to our future generations?

Jenelle: I absolutely love that. And on that note Mundanara, I’m going to thank you for your time today. I’ve learned a lot about not assuming. So don’t assume that Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders are one homogenous group. We have over 250 countries in Australia alone. Don’t assume that we know everyone’s story or that one person speaks on behalf of all. The lived experiences are wide and varied.

Don’t assume that if it happened in the past, let’s just put it behind us and move on. There is intergenerational trauma. We need to start with truth telling. It saddens me that you use words like privilege, the privilege of growing up with your siblings and with your parents. Or the privilege of having your Mum until you’re 18 or the privilege of not being taken away. To me that’s a right and I desperately hope that that right is afforded to all as we move to make change happen. And in order to create change that we need to connect at the human level and listen to stories. We have so much to learn from our Aboriginal communities. Unparalleled resilience is the oldest living communities.

You’ve taught us so much on this call, on this discussion Mundanara, you’ve shown us that we need to seek to understand, that we need to build relationships. And when we genuinely build that understanding and those relationships, the rest will follow.

Thank you for the challenge of asking us, now that we know what are we going to do to create change and I invite everyone to think about that and to take action. I know that I certainly will.

Thanks so much for your time today Mundanara. 

Mundanara: Oh Jenelle, I would say it’s a privilege to be able to speak to people like yourself in the position that you hold as well at EY. I just want to say thank you for reaching out to me so that we can get these stories out there and get people to really see themselves as part of change in this country, so thank you.

The Change Happens podcast. From EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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