Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Mike Conway

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change – the good, the bad and everything in between, because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: Hi. I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Season 2 of the Change Happens podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. Today I’m joined by the wonderful and fascinating emotional intelligence, resilience and leadership expert Mike Conway. He’s the founder and CEO of XVenture, a unique learning, leadership and media group. He was the former Managing Director for the Wiggles where he worked for 10 years helping build them into one of the world’s most recognisable entertainment brands. Mike has worked as a TV director, business leader, clinician and mental coach to elite sports stars, senior executives and entertainers. In 2016 he was appointed as Emotional Intelligence Resilience and Leadership Advisor to Australian professional soccer club, Sydney FC. And in the next two years the team broke every record in soccer in Australia. In 2017 he was named Australian CEO of the Year for AsiaPac Insider magazine. Mike also has a passionate to social justice programmes. Over his 20 year career he’s worked with and supported a number of charities and not-for-profits globally, including Adara Development, Steve Waugh Foundation, UNICEF, OzHarvest and the Australian Children’s Music Foundation. And as you can see, there’s a huge amount of diversity to what Mike has turned his mind and his skills to. So with all of that waiting to be explored I reckon we crack on with the interview. Mike, welcome.

Mike: Thank you Jenelle. I feel like when I listen to that I’m probably about 120 years old, you know? There’s that - 

Jenelle: You should be by my calculations!

Mike: Or maybe I just did like a month in each one and that was probably enough. That was really lovely. It’s really lovely. And who would have thought, who would have thought when you listened to that and the list of things that I’ve been involved with? 

Jenelle: Oh, exactly. Who would have thought? So, let’s start there. When someone has had as diverse a career as you have it’s always hard, you know, for me to know where to start with these interviews. But I might start if I could with some broad brush strokes on your career. Can you paint a high-level picture of your career and what lead you to work towards energising individuals, teams and organisations?

Mike: Yeah, Janelle, I think that socialisation is such an important part of life. And, you know, when you get older you don’t actually – you start to realise I should say, when you’re young you don’t think about it – my socialisation was in a family environment in Manchester where I had parents who seemed to spend most of their time in the caring environment. So teaching, educating, supporting, giving. And that becomes part of your ethical code, your moral code. So that really translated into the things that I did. It just became a natural course really. So from, you know, going to do health studies at Sheffield to then working with disabled kids in France to then moving into the National Heath Service to work on health planning, which is kind of fascinating given what’s been going on in the world in the last couple of years. And then moving into this amazing company and organisation that you’re a leader of, Jenelle, EY where all the focus of my work, or most of it, was about how do I actually help people in delivering care more effective, more efficient, which was in the health service. So came over to Australia to help move the kid’s hospital from Camperdown to Westmead. But if you look at that, and then even then you translate that to how do you go from there to the Wiggles, you know, well the Wiggles were still very similar. It was about learning and development and the growth of a human being to be the best they could be. Which is they’re now moving into XVenture which is all about the big kids. Helping big kids do the same thing. So that’s the length and breadth of it. It’s about working with people and being able to sit and look from the stands, or looking very close or even from a distance saying “Wow, haven’t they done well” and feeling good about that. That’s where I feel that my position is.

Jenelle: Wow. Actually I was just going to ask you, is there an overarching purpose or mission or change agenda that drives you and guides the choices you make and I can see the threat about that moral and ethical code and the learning and development and growth of a human being. Would you distil that into that’s your change agenda? Or is that what drives you?

Mike: It is. You know what drives me is – and it sounds so trite and as I’m saying it I’m going “Oh my goodness”, you know, I know that you like dance so that’s something but you know or music, but, you know, make the world a better place. And it sounds so trite that actually I didn’t create those words, lyrics of a song, but if I can actually contribute something – because if you get to sort of my age, you know, and I’m a few years ahead of you, Jenelle, you start to realise how quick it’s going. And so what are you going to do tomorrow? Well I feel it’s not – for me it’s not about finance. It’s not about monetary gain. I’m very, very happy and I’m very content and I’ve got a roof over my head so Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is well and truly stable there. My self-actualisation is about can I contribute to someone and then hear that they’ve done really well and they’re growing and developing and living a happy life. That’s it really. You know making the world a better place is all very cool and nice and it’s a feel good thing, and possibly feels a bit cheesy. But then in doing so there’s this extra dimension that I’ve realised and a pattern which says yeah, but isn’t it cool to actually find solutions to things that people say can’t be done or can’t be achieved. And that’s when I really get excited and particularly when you do it with lots of different people – with groups of people and we together say well, look at we’ve just done.

Jenelle:I’m fascinated by that because I could get, you know, there are as many – more people that would say well, that’s a bit of a turn off. Cannot be done. Like I’m not going to exhaust myself and that. What is it about that, what is it about your background that has made that be an attractive thing to you?

Mike: My mum was a primary school teacher and a music teacher. Her response quite often to me when I was a little one was “no” which is actually from an emotional intelligent, emotionally agile viewpoint is actually the opposite of – you learn, you know, from psychology and from the things you’ve learned as well, actually if you tell a kid not to walk across the road then what they’re going to do is try and walk across the word. But I quite often said no and I think it was probably because she had three little kids in three years and I was probably a little bit more troublesome. So the no was something which really spurred me to do the opposite quite often. So she wanted me, for example, to play the piano and I said no I’m going to play the guitar. And it became a pattern. And I wasn’t being rude or mean or aggressive or angry but that’s – I think that’s one of the elements of it. It’s a bit like the Wiggles. You know, people would say what four guys in Star Trek uniforms going to America to break it, how’s that going to happen? That’s enough, we’re all spurred on and we worked really hard to make it happen. And it’s not because, you know, I’m trying to prove anything I don’t think. It’s just because it’s there, it has to be done.

Jenelle: I can hear some amazing successes. I might imagine that there are times where, you know, you’ve been lured by the no and actually you haven’t been able to achieve whatever it was. Is there anything like that that comes to mind? What happens to you then when the no has sort of played out as a can’t do?

Mike: You know I’m a human being, you know, and we experience disappointment. But what I’ve learned, I think, is that the disappointment is fuelled by reflection. But now I look at it and say a mistake made. So what do I learn from the mistake? And there are definitely plenty of no’s that have gone on. I can remember putting a proposal in when I was at EY, right? And I was so excited, so excited about this proposal because it was actually related to the Olympic Games. Who would have thought that I’m actually working with the Olympic teams at the moment? But I didn’t expect that. There’s another surprise. But at the time I wanted to work on the Olympic stadium project and I just put my heart and soul into this thing, because I wanted to. Even though I’ve got a health background and it sort of different fit but cost benefit analysis did and option appraisal of stadiums, but we didn’t win it. It was really disappointing. 

Jenelle: I’m familiar with that dynamic.

Mike: Have you had experience?

Jenelle: Yes I have.

Mike: Yeah, and it’s really, really – and it becomes part of, well, not good enough, what did I do wrong? But the reality was I wasn’t ready for it actually. And so that happens sometimes too – that reality of actually it wasn’t your turn. It wasn’t your time. But you’ve got to know that too. And now I go back and I look at it and I think oh my goodness, what was I thinking? I wasn’t ready for it. So there are definitely no’s but I think that I’m better now being able to understand why. Why things didn’t go to plan. Last couple of years it’s probably the same. I mean I don’t know about your world but, you know, my world has changed dramatically. And the plans that we had in place literally fell on – they just literally fell, fell over. Everything. You know, my business died. And you’re not allowed to say that. You know, that’s the other thing. You know in years gone by, I mean you’ve worked in business for many years, the first point of call when you meet someone and they say “How’s business?”, “Ah, it’s great, we’re doing so well”. And I kind of changed tack last year by saying actually it’s really, really tragic. And that’s a learning moment, because I wouldn’t have said that before. I wish I said that several times before and been honest about that, but I’m now honest about it and I feel OK about that too.

Jenelle: Ten years with the Wiggles, Mike, almost all of that as the Managing Director. Tell me about what that was like, that period of time – the challenges, the opportunities?

Mike: Well firstly it wasn’t my idea and I didn’t create it. The uniqueness of it is a lesson for all of us. And you hear more about this now that if you can make your work your passion and vice versa you’ve got a reasonable chance. The guys that built this, Anthony Field and Greg Page and Murray Cook with Jeff Fatt their friends, were passionate about music, that was one thing. And they were already very talented at that. Some of them had had a really interesting career as musicians. But they’d also then moved into learning about early childhood education and became passionate about that. So they put those two things together and realised how music can affect young people, children particularly, in relation to education. So it was a first. And they did a lot hard yards before I arrived. But I had become friends with them before I was appointed to help them run that business. So they have quite a reasonable foundation in as much as Australia, they’d already started to understand and learn how to put a concert on. They’d been really good at that. They’d delivered success into some of the big arenas. They were already on the ABC. They’ve done those things. Probably what they’d not done, they’d not monetised it effectively and they’d not actually built it into a global brand. But all the elements were there, OK? So what it was like is, I arrived again in this environment where they said, look, all we want to do is create, that’s all we want to do. If you can figure out the rest that would be great. So along with my partner in crime, Paul Field, who was there looking after the operationals of it, making sure the videos were completed on time and music on time, I was given absolutely free reign to make sure the books were balanced, and I could figure out how to take this thing called the Wiggles, which was emerging into a brand, globally. That’s basically what I was given. So anything from theme parks to how do I get it on TV in America, how do I deepen the relationship with groups – I mean major corporations like Disney, Warner Brothers. How do we expose more and more people to it when the Wiggles are not available? Biggest challenge for the Wiggles is that they’re not always there. You know, the risk with people is they can only be one place at one time, so how do we actually change that? So that’s essentially what we did. But the experience of actually taking on America from scratch was just one of the most exciting things we’d experienced.

Jenelle: Extraordinary.

Mike: It was extraordinary. But being true to who you are all the way through – and there was no plan of saying by, there was no debt, whatever we make we make, so the energy and drive to actually be a success and to experience the joy of it all was part of that. But here was a story, right, that actually provides you with some indication of the depth of the people and the, you know, the attitude. And I’d only just arrived, we’d set up the first American tour we’d done. And we were going to go to Washington, we were going to go to Miami and we were going to go to New York and then do some small shows there. No one would back us and we went on TV. So we said, look, let’s book some small halls. We’re talking about church halls here, Jenelle, right?

Jenelle: Right!

Mike: And we’ll do that. But what we were asked to do is do you want to come to Macey’s Day parade and just come on the parade. That was it. So we went yep, let’s go. And just before this happened, of course, something – and it’s 20 years ago – 911 happens just before all this happens. And the world changed dramatically. I mean people forget now but the rugby league team wouldn’t go to England because it was too risky. Big heavy rock bands wouldn’t, you know, they wouldn’t fly, they were cancelling tours. And we had this kind of moment together where we talked about trust and belief and optimism and hope and felt it wasn’t about business here, that our raison d’être was actually offering hope for young people and for their families. So we decided to go to New York, much against quite a lot of people’s advice, and go and do this tour. And that’s what we did. It wasn’t really cost effective but we went to do it and the brand took off. It just took off. We became the heroes of New York. We were given – we were actually given the keys to New York. 

Jenelle: Incredible.

Mike: And given the keys to New York then. And it just went on and on and on.

Jenelle: Look, as a mother of two kids, neither of whom are good sleepers when they were little, I will forever be grateful to the Wiggles for getting me through, you know, some extremely long days. And you’d be, you know, I know I’d be hard pressed to find a parent of young kids who isn’t going to break into song if you say the words “mashed potato” or “big red car”. And I was going to ask, you know, what do you think was the secret – I mean it was incredible this transfixed position my kids would be in or the, you know, true joy that they would have. What was the secret sauce? Was it that offering of hope? What was it that was so captivating? And is there anything about that that you have taken forward into other businesses?

Mike: Well, so there’s two things, right? So the answer is yes, I have I think. But I think it will actually have happened beforehand because the team that we had are very optimistic and we also – I think that we found like-mindedness about the back against the wall. So when the chips are down and people are going this is never going to work, we loved that. We actually loved that. And that’s what drove us to a certain degree. You know, the success storey – and, again, I put enormous credence into the work they did, they were so good at what they did. And of course it was a business too. We enjoyed it but underneath it was a very, very responsible business. We had to, to survive and just keep moving forward and keep going. Look, it’s going to be 10 years next year since I left but it still feels like yesterday because the principles are exactly the same. Here’s the thing, right? They loved what they were doing and I did too. Love – absolutely loved what they were doing, believed in what they were doing because ultimately they understood that you can learn through having fun. That’s what you do and that’s their credence. And then you commit, you know, and then you do that through music. And they’re really good musicians so that is their constant.

Jenelle: That concept of, you know, learning through having fun is something that I can see that you’ve obviously carried through into your next stint with XVenture.

Mike: Yeah.

Jenelle: Tell me how – what it is and how it came about?

Mike: I was only thinking about this about a week ago and I started to connect the dots. We became ambassadors for UNICEF. But I thought UNICEF had this big charity piece called, it was about football. What we do is they bring a whole range of corporates together, the corporates would pay and they’d have a huge big kick-around, five a side, and they would generate money for UNICEF. And they approached me and said, listen, is there anything else you can think about? I’d already been doing some work with the A league trying to bring a charity base into the A league and trying to help them and then also bring in celebrities into the A league. So I’d all that. So I thought why don’t we do a curtain-raiser or a group of CEOs can play a group of celebrities at this end of this UNICEF competition. I started that. And anyway, one morning we started doing this thing and all these sort of corporate people and executives all turned up and they were all in their kind of civvies, or what have you, and turned up. And then within the space of about 10 minutes, 15 minutes they’re all wearing their corporate colours. Absolutely proudly wearing their corporate colours. And they absolutely loved it. And I started thinking why is it that we’re – little kids are allowed to have fun but big kids want to have fun too. They love it too. How about I actually create something for the big kids. And that’s where it started. So essentially what I did was I started creating a TV show around taking major corporates out to a major challenge, out in Cairns, and that’s where XVenture started. And it was just an idea, and people said “that’s ridiculous, you’ll never be able to do it”. And I went oh OK, there we go again. So we brought 16 corporates - 

Jenelle: Music to your ears as we know!

Mike: Oh, that’s so funny. It is, it is. And so we went, right, that’s it. And so we took 16 corporates up, 8 episodes, took them to Cairns, I built all these challenges. I’ve got a behavioural science social-science background, so building challenges and experiences is fine. Built the rules and what have you and it was a real success. Chanel 10 took it, put it on 1HD, Sky Business took it and so on, and it was a revelation to me. And I thought I love this. I want to actually create experiential learning opportunities for the big kids. And that’s what I’ve been doing for 8, 9 years now. 

Jenelle: I would soon say, I mean, COVID has tested us all. No doubt, I mean you’re in the game of, you know, personal resilience and agility, yours would have been tested over the last 18 months. I know that you were doing a heap of experiential work requires you to be on set, overseas all of that. I also know in that time you did sort of move into a different stream, XVenture Mind Games. Tell me about that time with your business and, you know, how and why you launched the Mind Games programme and what is it?

Mike: Personally COVID has provided me and my little team an opportunity which would never have happened. And that’s the truth of the matter. Here’s a funny thing. You know, here was a situation where COVID happened and everything that I was doing, literally everything, was face-to-face. And also we’d invested a significant money into something we thought was very exciting. So I’d been playing around with a virtual reality concepts - and people, as soon as they say that, they think of, you know, the glasses and we’re looking through glasses.

Jenelle: Yes exactly went my mind.

Mike: Exactly! But that’s what – we were doing some of that but not all that. And I was using it because I thought it could be a really good medium for engaging let’s say just two people on a conversation about what do they see. So if you’ve got two pairs of glasses, two people and they’re looking through the lens, and they’re having a conversation about what they see. And that’s particularly useful in a space say like a professional football team where there are people from different cultures, different backgrounds, different language and some of them are introverts, some are extroverts and they don’t know each other very well. So this is a way of starting to gain confidence in conversation because in team sport communication is the most fundamental thing. You know, if you look at great teams rather than good teams, what I’m working on is how do we actually improve their communication skills? So that’s what we were doing. So we’re building these ideas and getting them to use glasses and do some virtual reality and we were using event cinemas for delivering these things and it was really exciting, it was very cool and the responses from some big corporations is this is really different and we’re getting great outcomes for our people from it. And the COVID happened. Boom! No movie theatres. Can you share glasses? Of course not. And so this huge investment that we’d made just sat is a cupboard, or a big room I should say. Thousands of dollars’ worth. I’m thinking what am I going to do now? You know, Socceroos no longer travelling. All put on ice. Tokyo Olympics fallen over, not happening. Major groups that we were working with said we can’t have you in on-site. Work that I was doing at Wollongong University along with Tottenham Hotspur where I’m a technical director here in Australia for them, no, there was no students coming in. I just started to wonder, well, how do I do experiential through a computer screen? Can I do it? Is there a way of dealing with it? And I came up with this idea of actually taking virtual reality and building virtual worlds that we could go into, and we could communicate in, yet we’re actually way, way away from those worlds. So, you know, you’re Jenelle wherever you are and I’m here, but you could have someone in India, in the UK and America and somewhere in Oceania and New Zealand, and they could be in teams that would like to be together but they can’t, but they’re actually going into a virtual world and they’re finding things out in that world. So we built challenges in virtual worlds. So we started building virtual worlds. And we started trialling it. We trialled it with the Tottenham Hotspur students at University of Wollongong, which was the first one we did. And then we started tapping some of our friends and colleagues on the shoulder and saying, look, we’re doing this, are you interested? And thank you to my old firm who I’m so connected with, EY, were one of the first major groups who said globally we wish to try this. And that’s what happened. So they were trialling it within their people space and they said this is really interesting. People were saying at the end of it, oh my God, I’m really enjoying this. And the learning, the speed of learning and the recall on what you were learning was so significant. So we started with that and then we started building challenges. And then we were then taking 360 degree cameras out on the streets and building them real time. And it’s gone from there to we’ve got cameras out with a major corporation around the world right now actually filming their offices and then turning that into things like on-boarding solutions for the growth of their new teams and putting tests in into learning management systems so that you can verify their understanding. And then now it’s being used for students as well. So, it wasn’t planned.

Jenelle: Mmm. But you know as I listen to you, I mean I was a participant in one of those XVenture games and it was fantastic and I saw the learning and I experienced it myself. So, wonderful experience. But as I listen to you I sort of smile to myself because there’s layers of, I don’t know whether it’s serendipity or irony in here, but, you know, as the world was shutting its borders and becoming – moving from physical to virtual, you were building a business in a virtual world. So you were creating new virtual worlds as we were trying to adjust to the one that we were cast into. And your business, you know, a method is around you know talking about resilience and agility and you’re facing your own business, you know, potentially just going God knows where at the time, and your own agility to go “Oh, what about if I explore this new capability and you know virtual reality” so you’re demonstrating the very thing that you’re’ teaching and you’re recreating the very thing that we’re lamenting but in a fun way. It’s quite an interesting sort of set of circumstances and situations.

Mike: Jenelle, thank you. You know – but it’s interesting. A bit like back to the Wiggles and back to what, you know, what makes you tick as well. That it was just the perfect storm for me really. And it wasn’t a storm. You know I saw here and said OK, and the more and more I got into it, I mean here I am. You know, I shouldn’t be. I shouldn’t be being called an ed-tech, for God’s sake, you know! But people are saying oh you’re an ed-tech. I’ve said, “Oh, am I? OK, fair enough”. But, you know, here I am engaging and going into artificial intelligence, you know, and speech activation and so on. And I’m really loving the learning from it. It’s not beyond any of us. And so one of the things that, you know, we probably should explore is we have a habit – and you’ve got to, to a certain degree. You’re, you know, your big organisation, you find people with skillsets that are going to help a client but the real skillset is our human, our self, our human self that – like what’s my box? I don’t actually know any more. And it’s not – and that’s also a challenge because people say, “So what are you called?” because people like boxes, right, don’t they? 

Jenelle: Yes.

Mike: But that’s a tricky one.

Jenelle: It was hard to do your intro for that reason!

Mike: I know, I’m sorry. But I’m trying to be smart Alec either.

Jenelle: No, I know!

Mike: But it’s just that, you know, it goes from one step to another naturally. It doesn’t – it isn’t meant to be – I know there’s a great market, it’s called on-boarding. On-boarding costs $4,000 approximately for every corporate to do per person. And it’s a nightmare. OK, I’m going to go for that market. That’s not what I do. I just go that’s not passionate to me. My passion is I wonder what the solution is to on-boarding, that could be really fun. How can I actually then take a virtual reality solution and make it interesting and different. I wonder if I can actually use electronic signatures and build that into a virtual world and then put it in a festival environment where people just want to do it, pre-boarding so that when they arrive on the company they’re actually already on-boarded and they can hit the ground running and they’re so excited. Now that sounds interesting and that’s where I tend to go.

Jenelle: I want to move to your connection with sport. You’ve, you know, mentioned quite a number of teams that you’ve had prolific background working with so many sporting clubs and athletes. You know, and we’ve been talking about the kind of change that happens, you know, when it’s thrust upon you, like a global pandemic, and you’re sort of forced to sort of have to think about what you’re going to do. Close shop, do something else. I’m interested when you work with elite athletes and some of the most successful sporting teams in the world, how do you help them recognise, you know, that they might need to change even when they’re at the top of their games? So things have been working – there isn’t that kind of burning platform but maybe they don’t adopt some of the mental practices that they could or should and, you know, you’ve got more of a case to prove almost for the change. How does that work?

Mike: I actually think it’s getting easier for me because of track record. So, you know, in the early days of me – I mean when I remember walking through the doors of Sydney FC, even though some of the people knew me, and it was almost like OK, so what are you going to tell us? Not another dude that’s going to turn up here, right, what’s he going to do? You know, it’s almost like prove it. But now through track record and success actually some of the methods that I’ve been using are actually becoming obvious. So that’s helpful. So, you know, I don’t have to start from scratch each time. But also the great thing about elite athletes – and, Jenelle, I’m being absolutely straight as a die here, I’m going to put you in there and I’m going to put EY there. In your world you’re elite athletes and that’s how you have to behave, OK?

Jenelle: I’ve never described myself as in a ??? [29.14], I need the audience to know that.

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, mate, I’m saying that, you know, it’s about attitude of mind, OK? So I mean about the attitude of mind of being an elite athlete, that you’ve got to be so focussed on what the goal is to be the very best you can be. That’s what I mean by it. And that’s what definitely all those people who go to Tokyo are. Sure, they’re going to experience of that. I went to an Olympic games but I’ve worked with, you know, cycling, rugby union in this last 12 months, people who have gone cycling, rugby union the sevens a gold medallist. Hockey, canoeing, soccer – the Olyroos, there’s a lot of them and they’ve all got that in common. So therefore if you take that to the logical conclusion, now if you’re at that level they’re always looking for the extra percenter – 1%, 2%. So the debate is about how to get a 1%, 2%, that’s what it is. So when I’m speaking – so today when I get off this podcast I’ll be speaking to athletes in Tokyo, that’s my next job. And the conversation is going to be about – it’s a conversation of people who know each other, so it’s not a surprise. So I’ll be talking to people already very successful. How was the day? What happened today? What did you notice? What did you notice about the performance on the training field? But the stretch is not generally about, you know, come on we can do it! It’s about, OK, so how are you getting your rest? So that’s what I mean by you and your team and your colleagues. Because if you’re walking through the door or on your first Zoom at 8 o’clock and you’ve had a shocking sleep then you’re not going to be on your name. And so my job is to make sure that those are the 1% too, 2%. That’s what it is. And elite athletes typically are absolutely committed to understand that.

Jenelle: Mm. And actually as you say that I did see an article – I think it was the Financial Review – not so long ago when you were asked the question of what are the two common questions for both elite athletes and executives and I think you said “How do I maximise energy and how do I find a solution to the phone addition?”. Do you remember saying that?

Mike: Yeah I do now actually.

Jenelle: Really?

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Invariably when someone’s saying “I’m struggling” or “I’m just not feeling myself” I start with rest. I start with that. I go way, way away from the field of play. So your field of play will be with a client or with your board or whatever. I’ll go the opposite direction. And the good thing about that is it’s a safe environment. It’s not about dictating the outcomes of your performance in a boardroom or, you know, judging you on that. And so it becomes really easy and you can see solutions. You can find solutions and you can see improvements really quickly. Two of the boys that I work with in the last three years have both won the Golden Boot in their respective leagues in the world and the focus of attention was on rest and sleep. And the second was actually on phones. And then the rest start to follow. So they turn up at training they’re feeling a lot better. And it’s the same for the Tokyo medallists that there will be and the people who are in Tokyo as well. And then if you’re looking at a team sport then it’s about, OK, what’s your relationship like? Talk to me about the relationship with your friends and your colleagues, let’s get into that. And it’s really very – it’s just at a human level it’s not complex. It’s not sophisticated. It’s not anything to do with the technique of actually how much you juggle a ball or how hard you hit the ball or how good you are analysing, you know, spreadsheets or how clever you are actually understanding, you know, the technology in a major information system. It’s nothing to do with that because that, in actual fact, is not the extra percenters.

Jenelle: I’m interested in understanding, you know, you’re observed resilience in lots of different contexts. What are the characteristics you would say are the hallmarks of resilience? And is there – do you have any example of where you’ve been able to consciously work with people to build that resilience? How do you do that?

Mike: I think there’s several things about resilience because there’s a beautiful – and pardon me that it sort of sounds like a masculine comment, but it’s not – but no man is an island, you know, John Donne it’s a beautiful statement which exists and it’s part of my persona. We’re not an island. So for people who’ve got high levels of resilience, they’re not an island. And that means that they’re actually very, very accepting of their own frailties and they’re comfortable at sharing those frailties and their mistake. And they’re comfortable about sharing what they might perceive as failures, which is a great strength in itself.

Jenelle: Vulnerability, mm.

Mike: Vulnerability. And so that’s one thing I notice significantly. Which means that they put their hand up and they ask for support and help., that’s what. So, I’m going to give you one which is sensitive but it’s powerful. And he’s an amazing young man. We’ve got a young guy who plays for the Socceroos called Awer Mabil. He’s from a refuge family, came over from Africa, landed in Adelaide, very difficult circumstances and has come through the ranks of playing football – or soccer – and ended up from Adelaide over the Denmark and he’s played for the Socceroos. I was just very privileged to be there for his first Socceroo camp when we played over in Kuwait three years ago with a friend of his who was similar background, Thomas Deng. It was incredible. It was a very, very important moment for Australian football, actually these two African boys who’d made their debut. It changed the face of football for us. And it also showed what can you do. And if you hear their story, it’s unbelievable. But here’s the big one. So we played in the Asia championship, Asia Cup. We got through to the quarter final and we’re playing in the dessert in Al Ain in the Emirates. We did everything we possibly could to win with a weaker team than we would want and we just couldn’t make it. We lost one nil. So that was it. We’re out. And you go back to the hotel and everyone then is fighting to try and get planes back out and it’s quite a strange experience because you’ve been together for a month and then suddenly everyone’s disappearing. And I got a call on my phone in my room, because I was trying to organise flights, from the football manager, said can you come to a room quickly, I need your help. I said yeah, yeah, what is it? So I went down the corridor and there was all hell broke loose. And essentially what had happened was Awer was in a room and he’d heard the worst news ever and his sister had been killed in a car crash in Adelaide, just after the game. And it was one of the most distraught – and that, look, Jenelle, I’ve not been trained to deal with that. I mean I’m – I’ve got clinical training, I’ve worked in hospitals, I’ve been a manager, I’ve been a Managing Director, I’m father of four kids, but I’ve never been trained to deal with that. And I had the doctor and myself and Graham Arnold, the coach, trying to support Awer with his mum who’s just flown over to Africa to see her sister, her family’s all over the place trying to deal with this thing. And it was horrific actually. But we got through it together, OK, that night. And from there on in it was all about togetherness and dealing with this step at a time. Not knowing exactly what the goals are because you can’t – you don’t know exactly what it is. You can’t say it’s all going to be fine, because it isn’t. And he went through it step by step. Awer has been playing in the World Cup qualifiers that have got us through to the next round just a few weeks ago. We touch base regularly. He’s been playing well in Denmark. He played against Liverpool in the European Champions League. He’s an unbelievable young man and when you talk to him he’s so positive about why he’s here and he sees it as a calling for him to be even better. It’s mind blowing actually. So, to me, if you can get through that, and if Mandela can get through 27 years in a prison cell then I can get through stuff. So I have all those benchmarks as well which help me through, and I would encourage you to have one.

Jenelle: What an incredible set of benchmarks.

Mike: Yeah, and I encourage to have benchmarks and, you know, friends and family of yours to have benchmarks of people. There are people actually – it’s not that they’re worse off but they’ve been able to get through it so I’m going to do that too. I can do it. And it’s going to be tough but I’ll do it.

Jenelle: If I was to ask you for, you know, one tip or one piece of advice to leave the audience with, you know, if you think about in the question of how do modern-day leaders, you know, develop their emotional intelligence, how can they better connect with people, what’s the advice that you would give?

Mike: This is a hard one, right? Well that’s a very hard question. I knew that, you know, as soon as I get a one question answer I mean, oh my God, where am I going with this? So I’m meandering a bit, so apologies. I think that the – if you want to be back to the word that keeps popping up these day, “authentic”, I think you’ve got to be really true and sit down with someone and say tell me what you see. Tell me what you see. Just be honest about what you see. I want you to tell me. And, you know, we do, you know, in organisation corporation you do 360s and what have you and people are frightened about saying something about someone. But if you really want to be really good at something I think you need to ask the question to someone you trust. And be comfortable about saying, listen, I want you to tell me warts and all what you see. What do you think I can improve? What are the good piece about what I do. And I don’t mean to be brutal but I want you to be honest with me. And then you take that on board. Now, if you find the right person they can also be a true mentor for you. It may not be a managing director or CEO or what have you. It doesn’t have to be. One of my best mates in the world is a chippie. He’s a carpenter. And he is so honest with me about who I am. It’s just brilliant. And I love his company and there’s never an issue between us because he’s just so honest with me. And one of the best mentors I’ve ever had.

Jenelle: Oh, love it.

The Last Three – three fast questions on change to finish the podcast.

Jenelle: Mike, this has been a very rich discussion. I’m going to finish up with a fast three questions. I know I didn’t give you these questions at all.

Mike: Oh no! Oh my God!

Jenelle: But I just wanted to throw you – no, it’s OK. So, first question. What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?

Mike: Right, OK. Well I’m reading two books. There’s actually one – where’s it gone? Oh, it’s here. Let me just grab it because it’s such a – because I’m struggling with it, that’s the reason why I’m grabbing it. I have a habit of opening two or three books because when I struggle I close and go, oh, I’ll go to something else and make it easier, right?

Jenelle: Me too.

Mike: Yeah, good. Well we’re very like-minded, right? So, but the one that I’m reading I’ve got Attenborough by my bedside and I tip into it and I’ve been trying to read a paragraph a night, but I do my half a paragraph. Sorry about that, not very good. But this is a book that I’ve had, and it’s really – like, it’s only got 120 – 130-odd pages, really small book, traditional looking, and it’s by a guy called Paul Nurse, who’s a Nobel Prize winner, and it’s called “What is Life: Understand Biology in Five Steps”. So it sounds like it’s simple.

Jenelle: Oh, look at the stellar book of what is life in ??? bits [40.41]

Mike: That’s the problem! It sounds simple but Bill Bryson “A nearly perfect guide to the wonder and complexity of existence”. Let me tell you, I keep having to go over this more than reading an Eckhart Tolle book and going what is he saying? What’s that mean? So this has been sitting here on my desk for weeks and I’ve gone through and I’m only on page 18 and I’m going well I’m on to the gene. I’m going OK, let me go back again. So that’s one that I’m using and I’m committed to completing this this year. OK.

Jenelle: Alright, well we must compare notes when you’ve finished that. The second question, what is your superpower? Now this can be something that’s highly additive to the world or it could be a useless party trick. Your choice!

Mike: Ha! I’m not going to sing it but I can actually – I’m not going to do it now – but I can actually sing “How Much is that Doggy in the Window?” backwards.

Jenelle: Oh, really?!

Mike: Yeah, yeah, I can. I did it as a party trick when I was – because someone said you’ve got to do a party trick when I was about 11. So I went OK and I’ve kept it and I can still remember it from now. Because what - I’m a musician, right, but I can play music, you know, I’ve been doing that for years in big musical events, but that’s my little, tiny party trick that very few people know, but now you know and others. 

Jenelle: I know it. And you know what? If we ever come out of lockdown or we ever have a physical Christmas party, you’re getting an invite and I want to hear that.

Mike: That’s fine.

Jenelle: And final question, if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard what would that quote be? Can be yours, it could be someone else’s.

Mike: Oh.

Jenelle: Just something that you sort of live by.

Mike: I’ll tell you one that I use a lot and then I – we laugh, my team laugh because they hear the Socceroos saying it a lot. And I started it four or five years ago. And it’s real simple but it’s “No stone unturned”. No stone unturned, you know? So if we’re gong to do something let’s get to the point where we can’t go any further. That’s it. And I haven’t got there yet. So, no stone unturned.

Jenelle: Oh, I love that. Mike, I can’t thank you enough for your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation. And lots to take away from this. You know, when I was sort of really looking into your background and thinking about, you know, the intro and your experience I was like I kept thinking how does this person have such diversity of experiences?. But I realised it’s because of you. It’s because of the way that you view and embrace opportunities. You see them as challenging and fun and just – it speaks to possibility. You have the ability to see connections that, you know, between interest and capabilities and environments and motivations, and that’s why these experiences open up to you. I want to thank you for the reminder that big kids like to have fun too. And I think it’s something we should remember and the power of experiential learning which gives that. I love your such genuine curiosity and when you can turn perfect storms into perfect opportunities. I love your fascination with solutions. And, you know, above all I probably love the fact of you being so brave that you lean into taking on the toughest of solutions. That you lean into the no and you turn that into the what if and you seek out those possibilities. I love the bravery in asking the question tell me what you see. I love the bravery in putting your hand up asking for help knowing that no-one is an island. So, so much in there, Mike, I really can’t thank you enough for your time. It’s been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

Mike: Jenelle, it’s been so kind of you to spend this time with me. And you probed me and you’ve challenged me in the way you’ve done that but is so beautifully and I thank you so much. 

The Change Happens podcast. From EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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