Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Michael Rodrigues

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change. The good, the bad and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: How do you knock out the hurdles of lockout only to run into the hurdles of lockdown? How do you lead a business called time-out when the whole world has been relegated to time-in? How do you change the collective mindset to shift from associating night time with alcohol and danger to heroing night-time as a place of safety and vibrancy? Today, I’m speaking to the first ever 24hour Economy Commissioner for New South Wales Michael Rodrigues, also known as Sydney’s first ‘Night Mayor’. But this isn’t a story just for the people of Sydney or New South Wales, this is a story about connecting with communities, revitalising cities, and shifting the collective mindset and zeitgeist and of course, it’s about leading change. Welcome to Season 3 of Change Happens. Conversations with influential leaders, on leading change and the lessons learned along the way. Welcome Michael, thanks for joining Change Happens.

Michael: Thank you very much for having me Jenelle.

Jenelle: Now, I read somewhere you being described as the ‘Fan Boy’ of cities. I don’t know how you feel about that mantra, or even whether you’ve heard it, but where did that love of cities come from?

Michael: I’m not sure where it came from, I know what may have built it over time as the excitement that the companies visiting them really and being part of it, so I am definitely one of many fan people these days (laughter) of cities around the world the world which have become also topical in context of the pandemic and everyone having a view on what does the future look like in what previously, or what I think will continue to be centres of culture learning and inspiration ah so, I don’t know, like I think one thing I have reflected on about that, sometimes in life and not necessarily respective of cities but sometimes people take things for granted, and I’m guilty of that in some regards. Definitely growing up in the south-west of Sydney and having an awe of Sydney City. Its beauty, majesty, its the size and scale of it and in the days I grew up, a slight trepidation about fitting in or navigating even and I can tell you when my dad very pleasantly bought me a Datsun Sunbird 1983 I think    

Jenelle: Iconic, iconic!

Michael: It had so much play in the steering wheel Jenelle and I’d have drived this thing into the city and I just was, to keep going straight you kept doing it side to side and, you know, I’d be driving this thing on a Saturday night, just trying to keep the thing on the road frankly, so you know…  

Jenelle: That sounds like me with a shopping trolley on a weekend. (laughter)

Michael: Those things have a mind of their own. So yeah, I think it’s an appreciation and respect for that comes from you know learning to discover and then being inspired by a place that you’ve grown up or places that you’ve visited.

Jenelle: I love it! So I want to stay on that for a minute, and get a sense of who you are, your cultural background. You said you grew up in Sydney’s south west, I think you grew up in Liverpool and went to school in Campbelltown if I’m correct about that. Maybe can you tell us a bit about your sort of formative years, what were they like?

Michael: The Liverpool that I was born into really was in the 70s and at the time it was, I guess, and still, although changing rapidly, lower socio-economic, would be the term and an area that had traditionally been, I guess, occupied by returned service people and then waves on immigration post war so… and this will come up in our podcast, not least of all, because of my background and yours, and the hard reality of it was that the White Australia Policy was still tailing off at that point and the consequence of it was, I wouldn’t describe it as a “tough” growing up, because I’m conscious that I had a house to live in and a family to love me and all those things, but yeah, you’re sort of singled out a bit and different and very conscious of it. I think that I at this time approached my engagement with the world around me by in those teen years in particular, learning to be invisible I think is how I phrased it in the past because it was a “safer way” of navigating agricultural high school, where you’re very much the minority students and the nature of growing up in that era, I think it has had a bit of an impact on the empathy that one feels towards people who don’t necessarily feel comfortable in a situation and I am not going to hold myself out as some sort of master of that but I do think about that a lot and then in terms of I guess professional roles that I’ve been in most recently, have really been in service of that, of trying to make Sydney cities for everyone. A lof of talk about visitors of course and visitors are all important, but how can it be a place that’s comfortable for visitors if it’s not comfortable for its residents.

Jenelle: You went on to become, I mean you said you’ve learnt how to become a bit invisible, but then you went on to become a construction lawyer. I would have imaged that there’s some amount of visibility in that. It’s a niche profession in the country in those days. Tell me about the “why” of that career choice for you.

Michael: It was definitely “hi vis” wasn’t there, strolling around in flouro on construction sights…

Jenelle: Definitely hi vis!

Michael: It’s come up in other environments so my dad’s used to me used to hearing me say it, but he was highly influential in my upbringing and I wouldn’t call it guidance but direction, as in, until I got the answer right ie the one that he was asking for, they were all unacceptable.

Jenelle: Try again (laughter)

Michael: So my brother having done Science and Law, when I was going through the University guide, we spotted this Engineering and Law degree and my dad when “ooh, Science and Law’s good, but Engineering and Law! Two professions for the price of one!

Jenelle: High value?

Michael: As it turns out, it was two professions for the price of two because you had to pay for them both, but yeah, it was so it was a bit, you know I was good in Maths and the like and not necessarily as weighted in school to Law, but Law is always seen as a good degree to do, especially those of us who have done them, coach everyone else into doing them so they can suffer as well. But then I just looked at it and went “oh Wow”. I worked out when I was registering for the degree, there’s only three people in my year that are doing it, out of all the law students and that gave me the clue that “hey this is going to be pretty unique” and then, where can I provide the most value, having done that and Construction Law Project Finance Law and those sorts of areas that I went into was really just playing to what I thought was a natural competitive advantage. I think that it was an element of working out where I could make an impact at that stage and having a lot of fun really… building construction projects for the Olympic Games was every 20year old’s dream.

Jenelle: That’s pretty cool. So speaking of having a lot of fun there, midway in your career you shifted base to the middle-east. Tell me about the catalyst for that decision. What drove that and what was that time like?

Michael: My poor bookkeeping. I’d be at Allens for three years, the Law firm, and I really had developed zest for life and everything that Sydney could offer and putting a lot of money into the pockets of hospitality by eating out every night of the week and everytime I’d max out one credit card another one would magically arrive…

Jenelle: Wow, I’ve never tried that code!

Michael: And it was three years of this and I was like oh, this can’t go on, so I was economic refugee and just moved to a tax free jurisdiction. No, a little bit of that, but the quest for international experience was the catalyst. In a bigger market you’re going to have international experience but you’re still part of a big outfit; thousands of lawyers. I wanted to work in a smaller area so I developed a greater awareness of the law because you can get really pigeon-holed really young here in terms of becoming a specialist and I developed quite a lot in a frontier market where no one was really sure what the law was if I was being honest. It’s a complicated legal system there due to historical facts and the intervention of different codes of law and it was a place that I was attracted to for a number of reasons.

Jenelle: And when you reflect on the experiences you had at that time, whether they were in work or in situ in the country, were there any experiences that you had that you would attribute to the kind of person you are today? Were they sort of seminal moments that have really played into the psyche of who you are or where you focus today?

Michael: I think the one that comes to mind was an uncomfortable experience in Dubai where I pulled up in my convertible Mercedes on the way to work and then a bus pulled up just beside me carrying labourers from the sub-continent and all of whom were my age. I remember locking eyes with this man and I don’t know what he was thinking of course, I don’t know what he is thinking, but in my head I put myself in his position and his day probably looked like going to working on a construction site in the high heat, risk of death and trying to provide for his family in a labour camp at night and the stories have reported now, and I thought what distinguishes him from me really, and other than being born into a privileged environment, which is why I contextualise any childhood “trauma” as minimal in comparison and I think that that just is as many people experience at some point, an appreciation of what you have and so these days when someone asks me how my COVID’s going, I’m like “well, amazingly well”. If I have to compare myself to people who’ve lost jobs or lost livelihoods or whatever else. So I think that that’s, it was a seminal moment and maybe that was insight into the duality of Dubai, in terms of… it’s really just one large labour camp where every strata only can dream of having the opportunity of money of the one above it even if you are a law firm partner earning a million pounds a year, that’s a fraction compared an Emirati might be etc and you’re not engaged with society in the way that… and I think maybe that’s it, there’s no real way of contributing it in a cultural sense or in a civic sense and that lead to a period of loneliness in Dubai where I just thought “oh this is” without judging of course like for me it was a whole lot of fun, don’t get me wrong, highly recommend it, but I wasn’t necessarily feeling whole.

Jenelle: It’s interesting as I reflect on you talking about sort of growing up in the south-west Sydney and feeling perhaps on the outer and trying to feel invisible there. Then you go across to the middle east and actually, you’re on the inner in the sense that you’re in the “haves” group, but still feeling not quite right; a sense of displacement and a sense of loneliness both ways, ingroup and outgroup; it’s an interesting duality to use yours word, yet in your own experience of being either side of an ingroup or outgroup,

Michael: There’s always another group as well, who is in that concentric circles or whatever you want to describe, because in that context I was an Australian Passport holder who looked like a labourer. So this came into play when of course when you’re going into nice bars and restaurants and you’re being stopped as a result of a policy, until you start speaking in your “strine”

Jenelle: Australian

Michael: Yeah, you’re Australian, you’re not allowed in. And so I think that that you know, it’s a good question; when do you actually feel at home and without pre-empting, I think that that is kind of… it sort of lead me along this path to wanting to feel like I live I am at home in the city and my kids can be at home in the city and then of course all of which is most true for people whose home it was. And now, we’re just trying to rush to have a better understanding of that and embrace it.

Jenelle: Let’s most to the media group you founded, which is TimeOut. You went onto lead that group for 15 plus years and with no disrespect, you had no prior experience in media when you took on that role. What were the principles behind that and why did you get involved. How did it go from idea to reality?

Michael: So, I’m pretty sure I’ve lost all following of my legal friends these days, so noone’s going to be offended by me saying that at that stage of your career; 5 or 6 years in there’s quite a crossroads for people, in law in particular. The best people can come up with is to go and open a café or a bar or a bookshop as an alternative career and what qualifies you to do that? Not much. And I remember when the TimeOut opportunity came up. I canvassed a few people…

Jenelle: How did it come up? How does that opportunity come up?

Michael: Well I was playing cards in Dubai.

Jenelle: Like all great stories start (laughter)

Michael: I just met someone that was working with TimeOut in Dubai over in social circles and with only the bravado the accompanies someone that is about to have a massive fall from grace, walked out to TimeOut’s offices and said “You know what you should do with the rights for Australia, is give them to me and my mate, we’ll do a great job for you.

Jenelle: OK

Michael: And an amusing anecdote was that at the end of my 20 minute presentation of why we should get the rights someone said, and my pitch was actually like TimeOut Global Brand, but actually you need Sydney; like we are such a good city. Reverce psychology some would call it. And the MD was just got a question “What target CPM are you looking at?” and I said “Very glad you asked”. But also “can you tell me what a CPM is?” (Laughter) Because I didn’t know anything about it and this would all play out very rapidly upon launch as it would turn out because we launched on the eve of the GFC, oh sorry, the same day the subrent mortgage collapse was essentially our birthdate and we were the child of an era that tells a story of rapidly evolving technologies and migration of audiences and how fast you have to run to try to keep up it if you want to monetise and maintain and build profitability into a business over 15 years so you can finally sell it and so the opportunity came up. I didn’t want to be the person that sat next to me at the dinner, going “oh, I had that opportunity once and I said no to it”. And as hard as that journey has been, by my own estimation and by I guess the estimation of those around me, whose counsel you trust, as for many people who take that risk the best decision you ever made as it became the biggest single growth opportunity of my career.

Jenelle: So did you have a fall from grace in that time? Other than not knowing what the CPM measure was, was there actually

Michael: Yeah, well it bottomed out in 2009, we launched in 2007. The company nearly when insolvent twice. I was all but exited from the company as part of the part and as part of the solution to new investors. I had to claw my way back in, build up revenues…

Jenelle: How did you do that? How did you claw your way back in and did you feel like you wanted to, or just had to?

Michael: I had to because… Here’s an interesting story. The founder of Fairfax, Mr Fairfax let’s call him lost a lot of money when he launched Fairfax in Australia but at the end of it he went as the story goes and repaid his investors back in the UK, every penny. And for me I brought family and friends into a very speculative venture which all made sense when you think back to 2006, when the markets were going bananas and it changed. And I had to take the view that there was nothing I would not give up while I could still impact the outcome. So when I got exited, it was, these things happen, it’s such a common founder story where you, in my case had a clash with private equity and you know, it’s just part of the game. It’s like OK well we need to sell the product onto new investors how do we explain it? Well the guy that didn’t know anything about publishing, he’s the problem, let’s get rid of him.

Jenelle: You’re telling me this story in a fairly matter of fact way, but what did it feel like, knowing that you had family and friends invested in this, knowing that you were being used, or at least as a scapegoat or solution to a problem or, how did that feel at that time to feel like “Ok, I’ve got to claw my way back in and fight? What was that like?”

Michael: You’re right to ask. Well it’s the hardest thing to go through. And it’s that Kipling poem that I won’t later, but it’s “if”. If you can see everything that you’re given, lost on a game of toss whatever the quote is, that’s when you’re a person and stoop to build a backup with broken tools. That’s the real measure of someone. And that’s what resilience is. And until you’ve been tested, how do you know how resilient you are. And like for me it’s partly as I age, and you associate more with serial entrepreneurs you can just measure the war stories and it’s very common and rarely know Jobs but the Jobs is an example. Exited from Apple, came back and the rest is now history. In my case, and we can get into it a little bit if you’d like. We’re really interesting point now around unconscious bias and seeing people and all of those things that I’m happy to say when you are trying to explain it to your niece aged 12 or 13, they’re like “what are you talking about?” Because it was on a different era. You can’t forget it, but we should learn from that and we should I think make sure that we do better. Yeah, it’s terribly leveling but you just become… I’d would like to think that I became a better person. That sounds really cliché, but any semblance of arrogance or misplaced confidence is maybe a better way of putting it and was taken out and you know, I was borrowing money from a friend in London to live and while I tried to get myself back into the company, and would ultimately go on and pay release rental part and building revenues as a sales person… very good at selling as it turns out and it sort of reset my life. The decision to start TimeOut was one thing, you go through that as your baptism and then come out of it and then build-sold company and then finally leave with titles of publisher of the year and publisher brand of the year with are nice acknowledgements but not necessarily any measure of you know they aren’t exactly that, they are an acknowledgement of something, I’m not saying they are definitive of anything. Be that as it may it’s the same characteristics and listening to Sally, your interview with Sally Capp, who, I don’t know personally, but is someone who I respect and follow and I think has a similar ethos I think when it comes to public service and listening and all these things that we talk about, but often talk about but necessarily do, what I’ve learnt about in public service is that if you can’t listen, you’re nowhere. And I think Sally really did a good job of articulating that to your listenership last episode.

Jenelle: Thanks for being a listener of the pod. Now while you were running TimeOut you also became the founding Chair of NTIA so the Night Time Industries Association, why did you establish that and what were you hoping to achieve with it?

Michael: Now I hope Sally’s listening to this podcast because that’s one of the best segways ever and I remember sitting in Melbourne in about 2016 and working with a very talented Artistic Director Jacob Boehme, but at the time he was directing YIRRAMBOI Festival First Nationals festival in Melbourne and I was talking to him about some concepts, I was trying to get away in Sydney and I just couldn’t do it. He was like “oh no, maybe you should do this, maybe you should speak to this person” and I had the emotion of wanting to move to Melbourne. And then I was like “oh no, I’m so proud of Sydney, how can Mike want to move to Melbourne?” And by that stage LockOut laws had sort of set in. Like to me, I didn’t love my city as I had at some point and then I thought, well you can move, or you can assess whether or not you can do something about it and make an impact. And by do something about it, that’s not pressing like on whichever social media channel, you’re kidding yourself if you think that you like something that you’ve done anything. That’s not doing anything. What have you really done when you press like? Is that ???3733 or have you gone and helped the person, have you contributed to a cause, have you taken part of you and invested it back in that problem that you’ve not liked and acknowledged?

Jenelle: So, but so if I think about that time with the lock out laws, highly emotive time for us, for many people from around the world. Sydney was seen as the city with its own bedtime, you know, so as you say, you could sort of pick the like button or dislike button, but what was the tipping point for you to decide that you wanted to shift from the presser of the like or dislike button, from frustrated observer of lockout laws to outspoken advocate for change, because essentially that’s what you were trying to do right, like you wanted to turn that around to fall back in love with Sydney and have everyone else do the same. What was that tipping point for you?

Michael: I love publishing as a business and I actually think it’s relevant to what my job is today as a 24-hour Economy Commissioner for reasons I can come to. So in publishing you work with editors and editors have a role to play around commentary and so in context we’d run a couple of issues on lockout laws and their impact, covers. We’ve written about it and I then started to engage my team; I’m like “hey our brand is all about going out”. If you can’t go out in your city, then we should have something to say about that. The response was, yeah well we have, we’ve done all these… either that hasn’t worked or we haven’t done enough. I feel, rightly or wrongly, and that’s what TimeOut is, it’s a tool to help you discover your city and be inspired by it. And so, in a way, compared to other businesses and there are line businesses, don’t get me wrong, but it was the villain to our hero, it was the enemy of our good, it was the battle that we should fight that if we didn’t, who was. And the answer to that was well no other publisher. Without being grandiose, our approach was, let’s get in and understand the issue and make a whole bunch of mistakes as we try how to positively impact something and that gave me an insight very quickly into some of the changes that need to happen in order to eventually see, it’s not just about lockout, it’s about a different narrative for Sydney. One that we now, you can hear soundbited and written about the press every week because we are now on our own journey towards a better vision for Sydney in my view. So I think it’s that thing of understanding if you are capable of having an impact, and if so, what is your duty to act. And for me there was a duty to act.

Jenelle: So as you said, if you’re capable of doing that at the time I recall and I know so many people will, it was an emotionally charged time with the one punch, you know the coward king hits, etc it was a highly emotive time, really important that the city was rallying around arguably a blunt instrument with the lockout laws, not just about that, but that was happening at the time, so how do you take a conversation on a macro level, that would have been quite an emotional loaded conversation and bring the nuance that’s required to that conversation. As you say it’s not just about lockout, but you were able to bring nuance and layers to that, how did you do that.

Michael: It’s one of those things that doesn’t necessarily happen in a linear manner, does it and I would always hope to acknowledge that there’s never one hero either, like it’s a team of people collectively working and this team, this cast is extensive. The bit that occurred to I guess the group that we talked about was that well is this a problem you can solve or not? And in that way, at that time, the language of the debate was very much characterised by police, alcohol, violence, health terminology, all that very emotive polarising language, which is great fodder for broadsheet media and was simplistic and obscured other issues like the demise of culture, city vibrancy and not just the economic impact of F&B not trading because it was far broader than that and it was recognising the ecology of going out and who had a stake in it and who needed to get active. So just some problem-solving analysis. And then I like to think I contributed something to it and perhaps the thing that I contributed was the story telling component and the legal bit which was if you can’t win on this debate, let’s go find another debate. And you’re never going to win on that language, and particularly if the core advocates are people with self interest in direct economic benefit from it. So night-time economy, city culture vibrancy, liveability is a much more complicated, much more nuanced discussion and it is a much harder discussion to have because you need to build alignment between stakeholders, who don’t, who see themselves largely as competitors when it comes to each of their artforms and entertainment offerings. So there’s sort of like a media branding aspect to this in a sense, a narrative piece. Find one language that you can move to. But then the other side was well how to unite people behind something and I think that this one may have been one of mine, it’s hard when you start seeing your own soundbites quoted back to in media, and then everyone’s a genius.

Jenelle: That sounds good

Michael: It was umm. So TimeOut right, like what it cares about is that you go out and have fun, doesn’t really care if that’s Ice cream, a walk on the beach, a bar, a music festival, theatre show, Hamilton, whatever… it just doesn’t want you at home for extended periods of time. So I’m really agnostic about what people do when they go out, I just care that they go out. And so I’ve basically said to that industry, I said “while you’re all arguing over whose customer it is, the couch is winning because Netflix and Uber aligned are offering a pretty competitive reason for people to stay in at home, particularly in context where the city is saying “it’s not safe, and you shouldn’t go out”. So it has a bedtime right? So like that became a unifying emblem in some ways of the campaign and I think stakeholder alignment, finding its first and second follower, all that kind of thinking is how you can build momentum around things, you know you’re winning when the politician gets up and says “it’s was my idea you know all along”. That’s the true measure of success.

Jenelle: Another measure of success was that the lockout laws have changed. What did that feel like when that was announced?

Michael: One shouldn’t under-estimate the importance of that, but it would not have been enough. Changing a law was not the only thing that was broken. And if you think it was, the opportunity cost of that decision is vast. What we said, or thought was that like anything, the reason Melbourne Victoria has done a great job on so many fronts is because they thought about, they said that’s where we want to be and we’re going to implement a strategy that is consistent with who we are and the people we represent and align everyone to it. Full Stop.

Jenelle: High intentionality around it.

Michael: Now as a state, that’s what New South Wales has not only done, but it’s gone one further. It’s said, we’re going to get everyone in a room together, across industry, councils, NSW Government, we’re going to work out what is the best way to take this forward. We’re going to pull together a strategy, we’re going to find some muppet, called Rodrigues to be the one that’s in charge of it and we’re going to get him and his team to help implement a government strategy that’s already got stakeholder alignment built into it, but not just for the benefit of venues who, once upon a time, had a close time earlier than they were hoping, but for the economic prosperity and the civic amenity of all. Like it’s a very different thing. The 24hour Economy Strategy for NSW is the only strategy of its kind in the country and has few direct comparators globally. And it comes because we learnt what happens when you really shut a city down and we thought we can’t do that again. What comes from that is “How do you stop it just swinging back to where it was before?” That’s the challenge of that situation and the bit that I’m there to try and oversee.

Jenelle: It’s interesting you know, because I think we’ve just jumped into the 24hr economy piece of it, but for me, when I think about the hurdles that you faced; we started with the GFC and we ran into the lockdown, the lockout laws, you jump the not insignificant hurdle of lockout laws and in the same period of time the world finds itself facing a pandemic and now we’re contending with lockdowns. And you are leading a company called TimeOut where the success measure as you quite rightly say is all about getting people out and suddenly we’re being relegated to time in. So I can’t imagine, did it feel like the metaphorical hurdles just coming? What next? What did you do that that time? Before we get into the 24hr economy piece, which I know is really related here, but I’m really interested in what that was like?

Michael: It’s all a bit of… it’s in that “the lost time of the pandemic”, isn’t it. Noone knows what year it was and how the thing went down but the lockout was a cold, this is pneumonia now, there’s a big difference. And by that stage I had industry bodies set up and what not so playing a dual role across night-time industries and time out you know went hard into the mission of the business, which was not only to inspire people to go out, but in circumstances where the whole ecosystem was being totally devastated, how could we preserve the infrastructure of the city and also and importantly the connection to the businesses that comprise that emotion, that feeling. Not only the revenue component; very important, so please buy from these people whatever, but also the connection between the hosts of the city, the people that put on the show, give you the fun vibes and their audience. And so the pivot as people love to decide was a global move by TimeOut and so I seldom, not never, seldom claimed credit where it wasn’t mine, but that was yeah the CEO, Julio Bruno at the time said we need to, it helped being part of a global business because as you would know, you’ve got data coming in from multiple sectors so you don’t stick your head in the sand and go “she’ll be right”. So that was a decision, but then I think not just about in that time the success of because ultimately that’s would lead to the awards and whatever else right. But because we were our best selves and we delivered against our brand promise and our brand reason for existence at that moment. The other side of it from a management perspective is the bit about the real reason you’re going to do that is if you’re an effective leader and you have, as I think others did, as was happening, you’ve got senior managers coming in and saying “hey we will take a pay cut before you’re going to them, because the moment that happens you know you’ve built the right organisation. That is what a good organisation looks like and you can’t get that overnight, you only get it for years of truly understanding what it means to lead people and that leaders as Simon Sinek says you could say eat last.

Jenelle: You’ve talked about, I was determined not to call you the “Night Mayor” because it sounds like nightmare if I say it fast, so I’m just going to go with the 24hr

Michael: That’s what my wife favourite message is! (laughter)

Jenelle: It was like how am I going to avoid saying nightmare. So the 24hr Economy Commissioner, tell me, it’s an exciting strategy, and we’ll talk about that in a second, but what is your night-time dream for Sydney?

Michael: This is one I wrestle over and it was asked of me a few years ago when Soapbox Mike as he was then known, looking for opportunities to get up on stages and just rant, and often did. So someone said “ok Michael, what’s your vision for Sydney?” And my answer’s I think still, as I said then, largely unchanged is I think that my dream is that we can have a dream that people can contribute to that dream and that that is only possible if you have equity of access to be able to do that and I like the work dream because it relates to the longest history of this country and this is really going to sound airy-fairy for some of your listeners, but I had the privilege of being at an event called “Fabrics of Multicultural Australia: where people of different backgrounds got up and as part of a fashion show and I’m talking from Afghani designers to Mauri to Indigenous to Indian and I had to an impromptu speech and it was at the National Maritime Museum which is really about Australia’s migratory past and I’d been inspired the night before by a First Nations speaker who talked about the water patterns from the different tribes of the Aura along the coast and into the harbour. And the metaphor of water being an intermingling of different stories is where I land on this and that surely is our greatest opportunity and it’s relevant to everybody because everyone’s come across the water and everyone has a story and that is true of our indigenous people, it’s true of our colonial forebears and it’s true of us recently arriveds. And so the 24hour economy strategy Mike, whatever you want to call it, has in publishing terms, I remain a publisher because the publisher doesn’t side the story. The publisher has to go out and find and enable the storytellers and that’s what I hope to do in this role. So when asked by those that want an easy answer to this, I’m like “Well, I’m not going to give you an easy answer. It’s not for me to decide what should go where and who should do what, it’s for local communities engaging with each other and their industry and in their area to come to an agreement about what their area means to them and how they want to express that story. And the people who do it well will have happier communities and people will want to visit them. That’s the thinking and because that makes it exciting. Like our competition to get people out of the house it to make our city as vibrant and multi-dimensional as Google are not trying to own Netflix, Binge, Stan to make it easier for you. I want you to walk out of the house and go “What are we going to do now?” you know and in a city like Sydney, it is one of few cities in the world, it’s 7^th in terms of multicultural makeup I think. Combine that with our topography and our indigenous past, we have the ingredients that I think are without peer. I defy anyone to challenge me on that (laughter), but I think the state wants me thinking that way and I generally believe it so it’s not an ask.

Jenelle: So let me understand a bit more about this story telling through city. Where are cities that tell great stories, how does a city tell a great story and how do we coalesce our city or our councils and communities within city to agree on the story that they want to showcase.

Michael: Yeah, that’s a really good question. Look the collective and evolving answer and a historian I’m not, but at different times of history you will find no doubt that kingdoms have risen and fallen, reputations of cities will follow suit. I think that’s a really big question, I think that I can only answer it from the perspective my contribution to it, which is to enable and give access to people to better do that piece of story-telling. Does that happen everywhere? Probably not, even the cities that are the most highly regarded. And as we approach the challenges of climate, as we approach the challenges of actually being equal, that measure will change the reputation of cities. Although while we may have present day regard for City X, in 20 years will we have the same regard for it? Well only if these things remain true, will they remain true, will they evolve into. So yeah, that’s the deeper answer, the shorter answer is “have a good brand marketing strategy and rig the indices.

Jenelle: Well you use the word evolve so I’m going to going to stay on that one for a second, because I read the 24hour economy strategy, you would be very proud of me. And right up front, the 24hour vision is set out and what I loved was, I loved that piece because it personifies the city and there’s a line in there that said “True cities of the world never stop. They surprise and evolve. They are not just open to change, they embrace it”. So I’m keen to understand from you, what are the kinds of changes that you see that our city needs to embrace?

Michael: I mean in my capacity as 24hour commission, its pretty well laid out in that strategy, and it speak to principles of diversity, placemaking, pillars, there’s boxes, there’s governance committees, there’s a whole bunch of things there, but they are truly evolving and they need to, the story of that city needs to evolve with the people that that city is comprised of. In light of its history. And governments main role is creating and enabling an environment for that to happen. Dismantling of unnecessary regulation that impedes that I’m questioning and playing a role in, for example deciding that why would you not use outdoors since we love them, you could have el-fresco dining and in Sydney in times when use of the motor vehicle is now being changing while active transport is on the rise. So there’s a whole bunch of impacts that can be made as we better calibrate consumer expectation and future audiences to what the city is willing to offer and so in terms of the work that I think a lot about, which is embedded in the strategy, if not necessarily articulated, is “what does the future of going out look like”, another way of saying that is “what is the future of culture” in our city and so my reference point, as much as I need be conscious of and embrace our past and our history and our legacy but how do the story-tellers, the goal routerers, the experience seekers that are 15 and under, how will they make their contribution, what do they need. Because the Government strategy will have long lasting impact so how can I better-enable engagement for all. I’ll give you a couple of tangible examples, because I’ve been speaking in riddles for half of this, but an example of alcohol consumption. Declining per capita, fast growh of non-alcoholic beverages category and so in terms of product choice, health and well-being, those types of market forces will shape the future product. The Government’s role is to get in there and recognise that and then say well does the current regulatory regime, does it help or hinder and is industry matching and keeping up with consumer change and if not, how do we help them do that. Because that’s what the advantage of having a strategy is. So to get to those platitudes that reel off the tongue nicely diverse, safe, vibrant, this and this, etcetera, the Government’s role is really help create the environment for that to happen and then pull whatever levers it has. So investing in things is currently the case around many of our programs which is CBDs revitalisation and other things and/or impacting regulation and/or educating people.

Jenelle: Because as I think about you talked about what’s not a small question here, but what is the future culture of the city going to look like. Big question to be framing and shaping. It does imply or have inherent within that, the need to change a collective mindset from associating night-time with alcohol and danger and to seeing night-time as a place of vibrancy and safety and community so is it a combination of some of those tactical kind of legal hurdles along with a vision and along with story telling that is going to be really the impetus for making that kind of I think not insignificant collective mindset shift.

Michael: And to add to that sort of line of enquiry, the impact of the pandemic in all of it if you accept that pandemics tend to shape and accelerate things. For example, saying goodbye the top-hat and tails. These are the things that follow pandemics. And it is in that direction for sure. And I think the opportunity is to see the world afresh while everything is being questioned and understand Government’s changing role now in how to most positively impact those outcomes. If you take a really simplistic view “let’s do these five things and she’ll be right”, get rid of noise complaints, like repeel the lockout law, cut red tape, everybody loves that one, but more deeply and they are all really important by the way, don’t let me be too glib about them. Planning reform, in future use of industrial spaces, a whole bunch of things that are relevant to the future use of the city. The kind of deeper questions, how does the person I don’t know exist yet love and are proud of their city. That’s the kind of things where the pandemic makes everyone pause for thought, the businesses that can kind of positively shape the discussion, working proactively with governance, one of the best things that’s come out of the pandemic is the ability for Government to be engaged in conversations like this and many others, trying to work out how to better serve the public and adapt and use the crisis as a growth opportunity and that’s bringing the 24hour economy back I believe, I’m really privileged to overseeing that and in the context of investment NSW, which is the wider Government economic development strategy, now Department of Enterprise, Innovation and Trade. And that’s ‘seizing the moment’ and looking out for both citizen amenity and for economic prosperity in the future.

Jenelle: And Mike, you’ve talked about the diversity of the city, an inclusive city, you’ve talked about access, so we’re talking about the democratisation of access for everybody. What is that actually look like. I’m still sort of, if you think about you’ve felt what it’s like to be part of the “have nots” or not be part of the have nots and see what they’ve been like, so what should it feel like to have access democratised in our city?

Michael: The shorthand on this is the rise of the Western suburbs, Parramatta, a city in the West and then the third city also kind of speaks of greater degree of access, 15-minute etcetera etcetera and there is a lot of thinking in that space and I’m a supporter of it. I can only give you my lived experience Jenelle of what it means to me in-person and it is the engagement and the generosity of people who don’t have and therefore appreciate and leap at opportunity once they are given it. And I think these are the harder conversations because the impact of the pandemic on how we think about life and how where we live and how we value time and all of these things, play out in our city centres at the moment because they are for some time not as well populated, not as well frequented and as we come back out of the pandemic, what does that look like? The natural people moment away from centralisation also is partly in line with 24hour economy strategy which says we should have great neighbourhoods all over the place as opposed to everyone clustering in one spot and when you have great neighbourhoods like we do all across Sydney, these become platforms or opportunities and when it gets to story-telling, what makes a great story? It’s when it’s unique and compelling. And we’re not talking spaghetti Western style episodes now, we’re talking about the real story of Campbelltown and Darwell, it’s this sort of deep connection and we have such a stronger sense of place I think now and most of the metrics indicate it. And so in terms of the connectedness, how does it manifest, well it’s also matching the opportunities that then should follow that so that everyone can have access to economic, professional learning whichever metric you want to look. It’s a lot of people working on this, affordability of housing, all these sorts of things have a massive impact on it, but the thing about culture and how you feel and creativity all of these things are, you still have a contribution irrespective of whether you have a very nice in the inner West as I do, or you are live where my parents live or in other parts, you know, everyone has access to their story. So and now the question is, can I in my role as publisher or 24hour Economy Commissioner, can I make sure everyone gets a chance to tell theirs.

Jenelle: Where do you store inspiration from around the world. I mean I know that there is a Night Mayor model in Europe, in the Americas, are there cities that you would point to and say, we don’t have to figure this all out, we’ve got excellent reference points here to be drawing inspiration and

Michael: Yeah, for sure. Nitty gritty wise, we’re 2.0 or 3.0. MSDOS was there some time back and the cities that have gone before; London strategy, New York and these are the ones that people reel off, Berlin, anywhere where there is a Night Mayor, MAYOR

Jenelle:  I know, it’s tough isn’t, we have to clarify this (laughter)

Michael: And so there’s a growing movement around night time economy, 24 hour economy, because ultimately it’s because of the role that home entertainment plays in a competitive sense to the out economy, that’s what’s fundamentally driving that trend. The market share that Amazon and Netflix and UberEasts have versus the proprietors of “fun parks” for example. So there’s reference points globally and it comes up all the time and it goes back to the Sally Capp thing. One of the core markets for us to look at is Melbourne and I’m really happy to say it, firstly because I love Melbourne as a city, I love visiting it and they have got a lot right and the reality is if you understand the economics of Australia, as we’re seeing now, you have Victoria and NSW in a friendly “rivalry” but working cooperatively, it’s better than us working us being against each other. Similarly audience size, time zone, a whole bunch of things that make it a pretty good thing to look at. So there’s comparatives across the world that you draw inspiration of, but for some of the listeners, they’re like going what’s he talking about? Like London, New York, they’re the best cities of the world. The difference is number one, Finance Markets, two climate, like firstly. Right, so do we think that people are genuinely going to fly all across the world to go into a basement bar in Sydney? Is that their reason for travel? Or do you think they want a roof-top bar? I’ve seen the harbour, you’ve seen the harbour, where would you rather be if you’re coming to Sydney? So reference point for us, should include places like Mexico, Rio in terms of how we think about our story telling, because our waterways are undersold, in terms of the communities, all those sorts of things. We have this chip on our shoulder about competing or being like London or New York, but lousy weather

Jenelle: We have afford to have a little more swagger in city, that’s for sure.

Michael: Indeed. Indeed.

Jenelle: So according to the 24hour Economy Strategy, many people want to have input into shaping our night-time economy, I think was something like 57% said “but they didn’t know how to contribute”. I love that you said earlier that people can contribute to the dream. So what would you say to people about how they can contribute in shaping the city?

Michael: And this goes back to the fundamental question and I think a lof of what you’ve been asking, it’s about the difference between theoretically having access and then being helped to have access, so there’s a job for me to do and the work I’m doing to make that product, that engagement more accessible. So we can talk about that, but I think that and leaving aside my all the other people bit annoyed now about what they’ve like and what they haven’t liked and thought that they’ve helped, but there is that thing of “what are you actually achieving? What are you actually contributing?” Like there’s a distinction, we often think a thumbprint on something means something, well question. I think that the most powerful thing is consumer spending. Where do you spend your money? And why? And if you wanna have a positive impact and you have cash and you’ve got discretion on where to spend it, think about what you’re supporting and what you’re not and why are you supporting it and why are you not. That’s the harder question, so now anyone whose anyone that we haven’t lost as a listenener is thinking “what does he mean”, well think about where your dollar goes when you make a decision on supporting a local business versus something that comes to you that’s got three intermediaries behind it. It may be easy. Easy is the enemy of, convenience is the enemy of sustainability, right, we understand that. That’s the thing that we have to wrestle with and I think that consumer spending is really increasing and happily becoming more conscious at the younger demographic than perhaps others when you have the opportunity and so, you want to support arts and culture, which artist do you care about. That’s the question! If you really care and genuinely community then should not we be supporting our artists in the community. And these are things that when after the first glass of wine and people start questioning by people like me at the dinner table, because “yeah, here’s how you can make a difference, are you willing to do it now?” is the question.

Jenelle: So I’m going to change tack now here for a moment here Michael, as we draw to the end of the conversation here, just for the fast 3 questions for you. Don’t deliberate too much, just what is your quick answer to it. What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?

Michael: I have just completed, I’m going to throw that in there Leviathan, which is John Birmingham’s unauthorised biography of Sydney, written in 1999. Greater insight into historical lense on Sydney’s formative years since colonisation and the power structures that ensue. And I am part way, not yet there on completing Terry Janke’s True Tracks which is guiding principles for respecting indigenous IP.

Jenelle: Very good! Sounds like very powerful reads there! Now speaking of powerful… what’s your superpower? Now that’s additive to the world, or it could be a useless party trick.

Michael: (Laughs) I’ve been told that my superpower is to, I’ve got the power of speaking to people and making them believe something. Now I don’t…

Jenelle: I just believed everything you said so, I’m hoping it’s true.

Michael: I’ll tell you as an aside, we did this exercise at TimeOut when the pandemic hit and you’ve got a choice right, a lot of people downsized or whatever, I was like, well hang on a second… I value my staff and this do more with less thing? Whatever. It’s like do more with what you’ve got. Well what have we got is the question so we made everyone rate everyone in the business on what superpower they had?

Jenelle: Oh right!

Michael: So it wasn’t up to me to say what superpower and our Editorial Director was like, Mike you can just make people believe stuff (laughter) and so I don’t know, you be the judge.

Jenelle: Let’s go with Vision Setting, not VSing, hey? (laughter). Now if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be?

Michael: So this one I did give some thought to because I can you know, site some famous ones, but the one that I come back to is “Half Respect The Dress Code”.

Jenelle: “Half respect” OK. Tell me a bit about that

Michael: It doesn’t mean that you should underdress by the way, it’s just fully comply with it. Yeah.

Jenelle: Don’t be a slave to it? A nod to it, but don’t over service it.

Michael:  Typically you’d find me either entirely overdressed or entirely underdressed. But either way, I’m using what I’m wearing partly to help me communicate and engage with people and shift potentially what they may think on issues that are important to me.

Jenelle. I like that. I like that a lot. Michael, hey thanks for your time today. Really enjoyed the conversation and it’s incredibly topical to come back into this new year with this conversation. I can see why they called you the fan boy of cities. I’ve enjoyed hearing your stories of growing up, I can hear themes of identity and acceptance and belonging that permeate what you do today. Thank you for your candor on the harder times. I think you know your line around the villain to our hero, you’ve had many villains to the hero of the city. You’ve had the GFC, you’ve had the lockouts, you’ve had the lockdowns, but building back up with broken tools is something that you have obviously shown. I can see the power of story-telling is going to be even more strong through our cities. I think your challenge for us all to contribute to the dream is an important one. I think it’s ours to make this be an intentional and conscious rebuilding of our city and I know I am personally really excited about reimagining and reengaging with our city and I hope everyone else feels the same and I would say this isn’t just a story of Sydney or it’s not a story of NSW, it’s around engaging with communities, creating vibrancy and community. So thank you so much for your time Michael, I really appreciate it.

Michael: Thanks very much Jenelle, thanks for having me.

Jenelle: Michael, if we think about, I mean, we’ve all been relegated to the couch for quite some time and have grown very comfortable with Netflix and Uber and what not, we’re now trying to talk about re-engaging in cities, what do you think that means for the collective psyche and the social conscience of us as we work to re-engage in our city?

Michael: Yeah, it’s something I do think about a lot and it’s at least a two-part answer, or there’s at least two main players in play there. The first, the consumer and the second is the business that wants to serve them. How’s the relationship changed? How’s the product changed? What’s the offer? And I think it’s a, if you think about labour market shortages, supply chain interruption, those types of things, then what you very quickly start thinking about is at scale, like at scale, so think not just me, you, but 8 million people, how do you potentially recalibrating the overall offer of what “out” is versus the now seemingly easy accessible offering of the home, so and you know, think about it, don’t think about going out, just think about any category play, and/or product differentiation and which way is the consumer going to decide at any given time and so how do you remove the barriers to going out? What role does technology play in that? What price? What people are getting for the overall experience? Whose control is the experience in? If you look at older demographics and I put myself in that category, very happy to be told what to do, have a semblance of choice, I’ve just chosen the most expensive one on the list etcetera, whereas in terms of future generations and on demand, who are more used to on demand and being in control of an experience or navigating a night out or a day out, how does that play and these are sort of like the capacity or the industry discussions that are already happening and my job really is to try to you know and I think that we have a shot at actually in NSW in light of having a strategy is to really work with challenge, and in inspire conversations in industry which is partly why we are in the process of preparing a report in the future of Sydney’s CBD really which asks this question “If you’re not going to the city to work, why would you go out to have fun? And what it does is say well, like people will go back to work, but if the businesses who are previously dependent on that as their main source of customer base, how would they change their product to be a genuine attractor and what conversations does that lead to. So it’s not a straight-forward answer, but it’s consumer choice on one side, but business and you know, it is the good thing of a free market, that at some point the customer will decide, yeah.

The Change Happens podcast. From EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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