Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Lucy Turnbull

Intro: Hi, I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Season 3 of the “Change Happens” podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading change and the lessons learnt along the way. Today’s conversation is with Lucy Turnbull. Now Lucy is so many things – an urbanist, a businesswoman, a philanthropist. She has a long-standing interest in cities and technological and social innovation. Her roles have included everything from being a lawyer, a counsellor, the first female Lord Mayor for the city of Sydney, wife to the 29th Prime Minister – Malcolm Turnbull, the inaugural Chief Commissioner of the Greater Sydney Commission, a published author and an Officer of the Order of Australia of the Distinguished Service to the Community, Local Government and business. The conversation I had with Lucy showed me that she’s an unbelievably curious person with an unbounded energy to contribute to a better, more sustainable, more inclusive, safe and innovative society. What you’ll hear today in this episode of Change Happens, is we talk about power and we talk about identity and also what it feels like to be referenced as the daughter of someone or the wife of someone when you yourself are a force for change in your own right. We also discovered that we share a superpower but you’re going to have to listen to find out what that was. I hope you enjoy my chat with Lucy Turnbull.

Jenelle: Hey Lucy, thank you for taking the time to have a chat with me today. How are you?

Lucy: Oh, how are you going Jenelle, I’m well.

Jenelle: Lucy I want to start by getting a sense of “you” in your early years. Can you tell me a bit about your childhood days and maybe provide some broad brush strokes of your formative years growing up.

Lucy: Okay, so I grew up in Sydney, I was born in Sydney. Both my parents grew up in Sydney and their families have been, you know, in Australia for many many generations, so we’re very much, I guess, an Anglo Celtic cultural heritage and background which is much less common these days. We have happily and much more diverse and, you know, sort of mixed … mixed demographic society these days but in those days, it was pretty Anglo Celtic in the eastern suburbs. Interestingly, one of the first waves of immigration when I was growing up in the eastern suburbs, two sets of our next door neighbours were actually, the parents were holocaust survivors. The two sets of parents were in Auschwitz so from a very early age, I had a profound and sort of like understanding of the horror of war. I think both the mothers, certainly one of them, I’m not sure of the other one too, had been one of the people experimented on by Josef Mengele, so they couldn’t have children and all the children in both sides of the properties, you know, both houses next to me were actually adopted, although it was a very Anglo Celtic society in those days, I did have a, you know, and a very fascinating but disturbing exposure to the horrors of the Second World War and those families were, I think they were Hungarian by birth and so I was exposed to that and also, you know, I went to school in the eastern suburbs and … which was really interesting but it was actually a time of considerable social change in the … especially in the 70s. I finished primary school and went into high school. I finished high school in 1975. So I grew up in a time of, I think enormous social change, the Vietnam War, peace movement, the first Germaine Greer wave of the female liberation movement. So it was a … I grew up in a very interesting time indeed and I was very lucky to do that.

Jenelle: Well, you know, you talk about your Anglo Celtic background. You were formerly Lucy Hughes.

Lucy: Yes.

Jenelle: The Hughes family name carries a lot with it. So your … I think your great great grandfather, prominent Sydney landowner, your grandfather Sydney Lord Mayor. Your father, the Federal Attorney General. So no doubt, growing up as a Hughes would have been … I would imagine both a door opening asset but maybe also an expectation carrying curse. Was that how you found it?

Lucy: Its actually quite … its an interesting phenomenon which I’ve observed both on my own account and our kids account. Well it didn’t really worry me but, you know, not personalising this to my family but for some people, I wasn’t sort of so troubled by it and, you know, my brothers and I sort of like, I would say high functioning, you know, successful in our own way people but I think, you know, in a funny sort of way, you are conscious of it but I was very determined because I’ve always had this really kind of bizarrely strong egalitarian streak in me that I wasn’t better because of whom my parents were or what my father did or what his father did or his father father father did. I don’t know where this came from but I had this instinctive belief that, you know, you are the individual you are and I think I probably learnt this because my dad was in politics. You’re always framed as being somebody’s daughter. I guessed I pushed against that, not by being rebellious per se, but by developing a set of values where I take people on their merits and I don’t … I don’t get affected, you know, who they are or what their background is. I actually take them and you know, engage with them and get to know them as an individual and I guess that … in a way that makes me, I guess, dislike rather intensely this whole idea of culture wars, you know, where there’s the, you know, what very right wing conservatives on one side and the extreme woke culture on the other where people are easily characterised because of who they think they might … the people might think they look like being.

Jenelle: Yeah.

Lucy: I’ve actually always resisted that and given people, you know, the opportunity to speak for themselves and not to be typecast, stereotyped etc, according to what people might like to think they should be like.

Jenelle: Sure and I can … yeah, it’s a very obvious that that would have come from first hand experience of not wanting that to be done to you.

Lucy: Yeah. I think in the last 60s and 70s, there was, you know, there was an element of racism in Australian society and I always bridled against that. You know, I just sort of, I don’t know, whether … you know, my parents weren’t racist at all but there were sort of tones of racism in, you know, in I guess, civil life and society in our culture which I always bridled against as well because I just didn’t think it was fair to judge people on their colour, wasn’t right and you know, one of the earliest, you know, memories, I guess, apart from the … my first political memory really was the death of John F Kennedy. I can remember when my dad was elected to Parliament because I was about five and he told me that was a big moment for the family but the assassination of Kennedy, then his … a few years later, his younger brother Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King and that that civil rights movement and the death of Martin Luther King really kind of awakened in me a keen level of interest in social justice and equality.

Jenelle: Throughout your career Lucy, you’ve been involved in so many things, roles across government, corporates, not for profits. You do a lot of things and you care about a lot of things and I’m hearing, like already and we’ve only just started this conversation. What is the common thread and the passion that has driven you during all these years and across all those roles. If you had to distil it to a kind of the common platform or purpose that drives you, what would that be?

Lucy: I don’t think there’s a common platform as much as I guess what I’ve done and what I do reflects my high level, you know, sometimes I’m sure annoyingly high level of curiosity to find out more and also a desire to actually, you know, informed by my experience that I’ve discussed, you know, my formative years with the neighbours from the holocaust and, you know, growing up with news about, you know, the race riots and you know, sort of extreme social unrest in the move for equal rights in the US. It’s been informed by those values of equality and trying in some way to make the place better – not worse. So I guess, when I checked myself and what I do and ask for my approach to things and just say is this going to be incrementally better or incrementally worse. Not for me so much but for the organisation or whatever I’m turning my mind to. Its sort of like … that’s always in my background. That might be a catholic girl thing but its … its definitely in the back of my mind all the time. Its sort of like is this going to be a decision for good or what is informing what will happen here, what's the benefit of what's going to happen here.

Jenelle: Where does the conviction that you can affect some change or you can make this better come from?

Lucy: Well, you know, I’m not sure I do have a lot of power to make change but whenever I’ve had the opportunity, I have tried to do that and to try and do that through the eyes of, I guess, through … with an open mind and, you know, an open heart and a good heart and that’s the way I’ve tried to approach it. So not to do it through a strong sort of preconceived bias. So I think … I think one of the things I try never to do is to pre-judge things. It’s always … so I think that idea of being curious and having an open mind makes you more, I guess, open minded or open hearted to listening to the views of others and I really like hearing other people’s views and perspectives who have had different experience, have different qualifications than me and hear what they have to say and see what they think because I don’t think, especially when these are important decisions you’re making, you should come with preconceived notions.

Jenelle: Very good. I wanted to turn to the topic of “cities”. Its something that you’ve had and continue to have a massive interest in and a heavy hand in. What is it that inspires and fascinates you about cities.

Lucy: You know, so as a small kid, I was fascinated. I couldn’t have said this at the time because I didn’t really know this but looking back, I was fascinated by architecture, by trees, how big the trees were, how much shade there was, what the houses looked like, what the city looked like. So I was just sort of observing this in my mind’s eye, all the time. I had a finely tuned or a deep interest in what the world around me was like in a three dimensional sense. So that meant I guess, I was very curious about how it changed and in the late 60s and 70s, it was changing an awful lot. Like the city skyline was changing by the day, sometimes by the minute when all the big tall buildings were going up in the 60s and 70s. I remember as a kid in primary school when they were building Australia Square and that was kind of like a really big deal. Now that’s not such a tall building now but it was a really big deal at the time, it was a matter of great discussion. Of course, dare I say the big, you know, the building controversary was building the Opera House and how much it was costing and whether the architect, you know, the architect was sacked, Jørn Utzon was sacked and I remember all that news. I followed that news avidly and, you know, really closely because I found it quite fascinating. I loved the idea of the Opera House, you know, sort of followed that in the news very closely because I guess I was expressing, you know, in an unspoken way, a deep level of interest in the built world around me as well as the natural world.

Jenelle: Love it. If you think across the landscape of the roles that you’ve had, you know, it could be all sorts of things, a city of Sydney Council, the Lord Mayor, the Chief Commissioner of the Greater City Commission. What stands out in your mind as a … as a change that you feel particularly proud of having had, either led or had some significant role in, and what is it about that change that you think made it successful?

Lucy: Shortly after I became the Lord Mayor, like about 30 days later, suddenly the size of the City Council doubled and the population more than doubled and we took responsibility for places like Woolloomooloo, Kings Cross, Elizabeth Bay and various other parts of Sydney and actually being involved in that … that rapid change was really interesting because suddenly we had to scale up the organisation to double things like waste removal and doing development applications, doing all the stuff that a council does but times two or three, just from one day to the next and then it happened again, sort of less expectedly. We were able to plan for that because it sort of had been in the pipeline for a long time and then like six months later, suddenly they doubled the area on us again and that took us down to Surrey Hills all the way down to Botany which was a big … a big move in terms of the coverage of the local government area and actually managing increase in size and responsibility is one of the big challenges of any organisation. I’ve seen it in the private sector and the public sector. So that was really interesting, challenging and fun doing that.

Jenelle: If I just even pick up on that last example that you just gave there about the scaleup of local government and the perimeters with which you were working with. If I think about that, there’s obviously, you know, the up-tick on resources and the roles and responsibilities but no doubt, as you broaden that kind of geographic landscape, you’ve got more and more stakeholders that you have to deal with. There would have been angst, there would have been, you know, uncertainty about what that meant for them and their roles, would they have roles, what would they be. What did you learn about managing stakeholders, communication across that group. How did you effect the kind of change that you needed to have to be able to scale up the way you needed to?

Lucy: Well, you know, the most important thing you need is … first of all you need an organisational competence and we had really good leadership and really good executive management and you wouldn’t have been able to do anything without that because, in fact, the Lord Mayor and the councillors don’t … they’re non-executive, they’re not executive leaders and of course you need to have a lot of stakeholders come on the journey with you and so what we did early on was we had large public meetings where the people could meet us, see us, talk to us. Not just me, the management team, other councillors etc and I remember there was one really big meeting in Kings Cross and that was a really good forum for speaking to people. It was quite funny. A couple of quite disruptive people. Now if you’re a councillor, you’re used to this phenomenon so its like water off a duck’s back. A lot of people would say “listen, I was at that meeting, I don’t know how you put up with those people” and I said “you know, that’s local government, that’s what you do” and there are, you know, there are some times people who aren’t happy and will probably never be happy but how I tried to treat them is respectfully and listen to what they have to say and say “well thank you very much for expressing yourself but for the following reasons I don’t agree with you” and if they’re still rude to me, you know, like you can only go so far if, you know, you can’t pitch yourself against a brick wall for so long but you have to start off from a position of respect and open mindedness and listening.

Jenelle: You said, you know, there’s only so much you can do and you treat people with respect and a little bit like water off a duck’s back. As someone who, the water doesn’t flow that easily off my back, I tend to get really upset if, you know, if there’s people, there’s a lot of angst or pushback or whatever, were you always able to kind of brush that off … tell me when it didn’t feel so great?

Lucy: Well its like public speaking. Like I was actually very nervous about public speaking and really until my mid to late 30s and the only thing that makes it less intimidating or less, you know, I guess stressful, is actually doing it and each time you do it, you cross another little river, cross another little road and each time it’s a little bit easier. So you know, obviously being quite nervous sometimes and apprehensive and then you manage it and you just keep going, you know, “one foot in front of the other” is not a bad motto.

Jenelle: Its not a bad motto at all. So I want to also turn to the other side of the equation, Lucy, where maybe there was change where you were trying to drive and for whatever reason, just couldn’t get there. What … give me an example of that. What did that feel like for you and were there some lessons from that experience?

Lucy: I think one of the things, its not so much me, but I think one of the things that I really, you know, I guess I’ve been partly responsible but not solely responsible. One of the things that really troubles me a lot now, a lot, is the cost of housing. Well in Australia but particularly I guess because I’ve been involved in Sydney and I worry about where kids and even people, you know, in their 30s today, how they will ever be able to buy a house and get a foot on the housing ladder and that really troubles me but I think we really need to get cracking and do more because one of the … one of the things that’s quite clear is that there are still huge gaps in gender equity, you know, pay gaps and female dominated work sectors or job sectors like the care economy, like nurses, childcare workers, age care workers which are female dominated are paid much less well than men like tradies and plumbers labourers. A childcare worker gets $953 a week, this is from a government website. A brickie’s labourer gets about $1,490 – say $1,500 a week. That’s a huge gap when you think of the relative responsibility, like the childcare worker is basically priming the mind of this child … of the children they look after for their future life and I’m not denigrating the work of brickie’s labourers and plumber’s labourers but I don’t think you could argue that their work is a lot more valuable than a childcare worker. So we’ve got kind of fundamental disparities in our system. Gender equity is a key objective for, I think, everyone across Australia, certainly in the policy area because if you think of unequal economic power in a household. If you have, say a woman with much less economic power and earning capacity, that woman will be in a more vulnerable position than the male who’s paid much more has the capacity to exercise a lot more coercion and control over the woman and dare I say it, you know, there’s a lot of consensus that inequality – economic inequality is a driver of domestic violence. So there are all these kind of flow on effects from the way we value people’s work and I think, you know, at the Greater Sydney Commission, we identify the significance, the economic and the social significance of health and education precincts and education and health service delivery in our plans, partly because of my experience when I was in local government, say with research institutes in the city wanting to expand. There was a lot of local pushback and I said, “listen, you know, like this building is bigger than the rest of the street but you have no idea the significance of all the work that these medical researchers and sort of scientific researchers do, the value of the work of Universities and large hospital campuses”. So there’s no doubt there are huge piece of our future both in terms of our wellbeing and our education. So you’ve got to try and recognise that in the planning system and I would really like that kind of thinking to come across to the way people conceptualise the value of labour as well and then if there’s less economic inequality between men and women, then there’ll be, you know, less domestic violence and there’ll be, I think, a better world. So we started this whole idea in my final weeks as the Greater Sydney Commissioner. We worked on it beforehand of developing something called “The women’s safety charter” because I do think that we need to look at cities through a gender lens. Unfortunately the pandemic kind of slowed that down but its really important that we actually do everything we can to make women and young people feel safe in the city as they use the city and move through the city, especially now as the CBD is kind of under, I guess, greater economic and social threat, seeing as we’re all used to working from home. I notice we’re both doing this from home. So we’ve got to make sure that people feel safe and happy to use the city. Women are the ones that are most likely to feel vulnerable and so are old people and less abled people. So we’ve got to look at how we design and plan and maintain for safety and a feeling of comfort so that we can actually get as many people into the city as we can.

Jenelle: So then, moving to a related but perhaps more recent example of you pushing for change in the gender space. You’re part of a group of twelve high profile women in Australia who recently published an open letter to Australians on safety, respect and equity. Can you tell me more about that?

Lucy: Well it was really, if you like, 2021 was a big year, gender equity. There was the march for justice and there’s this increasing realisation that we don’t have, if you like, a gender equitable society. We’ve been going backwards in the world economic forum rankings of gender equity. All the trends, if you like, going the wrong way so we think that affordable childcare is a fundamental component of gender equity because typically in a household, the lower income earner which is usually the woman, the mother, steps back from the workforce for a few years because of the marginal cost of childcare, makes childcare prohibitively expensive, so we’ve got to address that, so that the women’s career paths are not as trimmed, if you like, trimmed back by child minding responsibilities as they currently appear to be. Like the standard childcare requirements for young kids is three days a week which implies that the … one of the parents is not, you know, the women steps back and does part time work. Now there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that but there are some careers sectors where going part time for five years or seven years if they spread their kids out has actually quite a material detrimental effect on their career path and progression and that’s reflected in the grossly different levels of superannuation that women have compared to men upon retirement. So we’ve to, you know, if you’re going to give economic equity to women and men, you’ve got to address all the barriers to that and, you know, we do want to have, you know, the safety respect equity … does want a world where sexual harassment is … there is a positive duty of employers to limit or to make sure, as much as they can, that sexual harassment is deterred in the workplace. That’s really important because if sexual harassment is acceptable in the workplace and the systems don’t work to deter that and stop that, that will more likely leak into a house or a family group and everything. So a lack of safety and vulnerability to sexual harassment permeates everything and so I say, just like, you know, in workplaces, you want to have safe lighting and staircases with no trip, you know, no trip down staircases when people are running around offices and have all those sort of safety rules and regs. You know, safety from harassment and discrimination is just as important.

Jenelle: Absolutely absolutely. So if I think about some of the names that are in that group of twelve, it makes me wonder what does it feel like to be having conversations with folks like Grace Tame or Brittany Higgins about this when you and say, Wendy McCarthy, who’s also in that group have been on this planet for a lot longer or not that much longer, I don’t want to sort rude [laugh], but you’ve been flying these sorts of flags before, how do you not feel exhausted and jaded when you hear the same themes coming through from the younger ones?

Lucy: I don’t feel exhausted. I actually feel inspired by them because they have such strong clear voices and they’re speaking from direct experience in a very compelling way and they speak to everyone. You know, they certainly speak to me but they have such clarity of insight and purpose. I think it would be crazy not to listen to them and of course, you know, like Wendy was very involved … she’s about 20 years older than me but … or thereabouts, but not quite, but she was involved in the very first wave of feminism when I was at school etc but I watched her from afar as a young child when she was involved in the women’s electoral lobby etc. So she is a serious pioneer and I saw it, you know, that I was very influenced by Germaine Greer who … I read her book when I was, I think, about 13 or 14 or thereabouts. So you know, these women, sort of like the first wave of feminism and we should never forgot the Suffragettes who kind of started it all, really back in the early 20th century but you know, there’s actually a lot in common and what’s interesting is that the group of women really cross the gender divide. There are people from First Nation backgrounds, lots of diverse backgrounds in that group and, you know, but we are all concerned about the same thing which is a lack of equity, respect and safety.

Jenelle: As I think about the various worlds you traverse – politics, not for profits, corporates, you would no doubt have had quite a bit of experience with power – soft power and hard power. Any insights about effecting change and using soft versus hard power?

Lucy: Well my preference is soft power, very much so. I mean I can use hard power when required but its … I use it as a last resort and I think the transformation in the city of Sydney and the scale and the scope of the city of Sydney’s operations, that was only achieved through a high level of collaboration across the organisation, across the various streams of the organisation and the community. That was, you know, collaboration was key to that successful collaboration but with the Greater Sydney Commission, it is an intrinsically collaborative model, we use soft power and persuasion and through, you know, speaking respectfully to each other across state government agencies, including treasury, transport, premier’s department, health, education. The infrastructure delivery committee basically had every key actor in the government that is responsible for city making or service delivery in cities and that was really kind … that is such an important move to have all the government agencies talking to each other and that’s really really important because often government agencies fragment and don’t talk to each other and I think, you know, one of the best moments … you’re asking what are the best moments before. I think one of my happiest moments in terms of my public life was when the Greater Sydney Metropolis of three cities plan was delivered at exactly the same time as the infrastructure plan and the transport for New South Wales plan. Now that’s sounds like boring geekiness …

Jenelle: No it sounds like a real …

Lucy: It was a moment, I tell you it was absolutely a moment. It was done by the … by Premier Berejiklian in March 2018 and it was such an important moment. It had never happened before in Sydney’s history and that was … like that was a really big moment, to have all those big government agencies working together to resolve a plan and, you know, each plan was approved by Cabinet. So it had that sort of integrity and cohesiveness … internal cohesiveness which was really important and hadn’t really ever happened before in Sydney’s history. So that was quite a moment.

Jenelle: It’s fantastic. So moving from power, I wanted to shift to identify. We sort of have touched on this a little bit earlier before. You are clearly formidable in your own right by any measure, but you have had big stints in your life where you’ve been recognised in reference to someone else, whether its an Attorney General’s daughter or the Prime Minister’s wife. How do you … what's that like and how do you internally reconcile that for yourself?

Lucy: Well it is what it is but I, you know, its [laugh] … yeah, it is what it is and I guess I struggled with it as a young … younger person more than as an older person. You know, like I have to say, it does get a bit boring being tagged as “somebody’s daughter or somebody’s wife”, although I am, I don’t deny it. I definitely am but I wonder if male children would get the same treatment. They probably would, they probably would actually but it does get a bit tedious but, you know, you can’t fight the tape, there’s nothing much you can do with it so you might as well accept it, deal with it, don’t get angry, just move on and do what you want to do anyway and, you know, I mean I would say that now I’m only referred to as somebody’s wife. My dad retired a long time ago so somebody’s daughter has sort of dropped off the screen but I’m only referred as somebody’s wife, I would say maybe 50% of the time I’m referred to in the media. When I was … this is a funny thing, when I was in politics in the city council, I was there as an independent councillor, you know, and we had the majority called the Living City Team. There were two Sydney alliance which kind of loosely aligned with the Liberal Party or more aligned with the Liberal Party and a Labour councillor. So the only political role I’ve ever held is as a political independent. When Malcolm was PM, I kind of got a little bit kind of … I guess agitated sometimes that people would always shoot home to me that I was completely aligned with whatever the government was doing and similarly, when I was the Lord Mayor when the Labour Party was in government, the minute Malcolm expressed an interest into going into politics, representative politics, you know, sort of standing in the seat, the Labour Party panicked and actually didn’t give me the respect which I thought I deserved for being an independent person but they just said … people in the Labour said “oh you can’t possibly stand for re-election as the Lord Mayor now that Malcolm has gone into the Liberal Party” and the good thing is I don’t think anyone would get away with that these days. So I think we’ve moved on from 2003 but it really rocked me at the time because they had exposure to, you know, what I’d done, I hadn’t been politically partisan, it really annoyed me but, you know, sometimes things annoy you more than others and you’ve just got to get on with it and live with it – right.

Jenelle: [laugh] Will that mean … if I just … I mean not to extend the memory, the awful memory of that but if you think that happened to you in 2003, then September 14 2015, Malcolm gets elected. I’m sure … or was it the case that after the excitement of the high of that wore off, when did the realisation kick in of “oh my god, that now means I’m the PM’s wife” and its going to be that to add to my CV instead of expectations that are sort of …

Lucy: Oh no, that didn’t really worry. I was so happy that Malcolm was the Prime Minister. So that didn’t really worry me. I guess my tormented period in that respect was actually in 2003/2004 when, you know, when suddenly the drawbridge came down … sorry, went up. The gate closed on a political career in the city council because the Labour Party at that time didn’t trust me because my husband was like in the Liberal Party. So, you know, maybe they saw me like that, I certainly hope no woman ever experiences that again.

Jenelle: So … we’re talking about Malcolm. You met him at the ripe old age of 19, I think …

Lucy: Yes … in my dad’s chambers because I was sort of temping because his secretary was away doing, you know, sort of I guess law intern work and Malcolm was doing the interview of my dad for The Bulletin. When he was a journalist he did an interview of dad for The Bulletin. Yep.

Jenelle: So, I know that you, you know, each described each other as your most trusted advisors and greatest cheerleaders. You’ve worked in many ventures together including medical research, social and cultural institutions. Obviously the Spycatcher, much known case where you were pivotal in doing that legal research. What's the secret to being able to move what looks like really seamlessly between work and home, from business mentor to supportive spouse or not so happy spouse, whatever the case may be, because we all go through those cycles, how do you manage that fluidity and complexity and still also ensure that you have your own space?

Lucy: Look, we just celebrated our 42nd wedding anniversary on Monday so it’s, I mean, it’s hard to image an alternative. So we have been each other’s allies and closest sort of confidante and counsel for many decades, for generations almost. So its kind of … its kind of like “business as usual” but it is built on a huge level of mutual respect and that’s really the basis of it and respect for each other’s abilities and experience. Yeah so … and you know, a complete understanding that we have each other’s interests at heart more than anything else.

Jenelle: That’s fantastic. So, you know, on the many things you do together is you have Turnbull & Partners, which is a family owned business that invests in early stage innovative enterprises. What excites you? Why do you do that work? What is it about that, that you invest in there, what drives you there?

Lucy: Well, we’re both really excited by technological change and the good things that can bring. Obviously we have a multiplicity of investments in the tech space, you know, I guess, pretty sort of geeky sort of stuff but its really interesting and, you know, we just love that sort of … that sense of what the future can hold in a positive sense and particularly investing in Australian innovation and know-how. When Malcolm was PM he had a very early … one of the first things he did was to pull together an innovation agenda and to, I guess, highlight the importance of building an innovation economy and I think that’s probably, if you’re asking one of the things he was proudest of, but that sort of reflected our own interest in that space over, you know, and experience in that space over 20 years and the need for there to be a lot of innovation coming out of … coming out of Australia because it’s, you know, the normal paradigm was “oh, we didn’t really do much of that. We’re a mine, we dig up coal and iron ore and export gas and that’s us, don’t worry about, you know, sort of inventing unicorn companies” and we certainly don’t agree with that. That principle is as important as, you know, resources are obviously to our economy. You know, like the future … the future will be a low carbon to zero carbon economy with a lot of smart people doing great things and that’s kind of an interesting place to play in.

Jenelle: You also play a really significant role in supporting entrepreneurs in our country. Why is that?

Lucy: Well because … because, you know, I love the way entrepreneurs take risks, they see things in a way that, you know, normal people don’t see … you know, regular people. I’m not saying that they abnormal, that most people don’t see things, they spot opportunities. They’ve got this sort of intuitive, I would say, sharpness of mind. It’s a combination of intuition and deep knowledge and I really respect combining those two things, sort of you know, books smart and streets smart with a strong sense of intuition and there’s an opportunity, there’s a gap and sort of running with it persistently. It’s just … it’s quite inspiring.

Jenelle: It is actually. It makes me think … well you and I were at a dinner together a couple of weeks ago and you were sitting at the other end of the table to where I was at but there was one point in the conversation where I was speaking to the entrepreneurs that you will remember who were sitting either side of me and it was like I was at a tennis match. My head was just flitting back and forth because they were talking about, you know, “what are doing and what do you do with the by-products of that because we could do something with this” and the other person said “yes we’re already doing that but have you been to Brazil because they’re doing this”. It was … and I was just so struck by how ignited their imaginations were.

Lucy: Oh yeah, like on fire all the time, just spotting opportunities but I think the best entrepreneurs, as I said, you know, like in government working collaboratively is the sort of like the secret source of getting things done. So is it with entrepreneurs. They have to work, you know, with their colleagues and their partners of course but actually spotting opportunities from maybe not even adjacent industries or businesses and just saying “oh we could do this together” and doing it in a completely new way. That sort of disruptive frame of mine is so … is so, you know, beautiful to watch.

Jenelle: Yeah, it really is and I was also struck … not just by those things but also just the sense of agency that they clearly felt in being able to do something about that …

Lucy: Yeah.

Jenelle: … and I was wondering, you know, I came out on a bit of a high, just going “my god, with people like that, like the world is going to be so amazing”. You know, we’ve got so much hope for the future. What do you … how do we gather that kind of mindset and infect the rest of society, you know, to be … they don’t have to entrepreneurs but perhaps more entrepreneurial.

Lucy: Well I think there’s, you know, like there’s a lot more of it around than there was ten or fifteen years ago. I think a lot of people who are entrepreneurs actually have, that I’ve heard, say this directly have given Malcolm credit for sort of changing the sort of like the perceptual landscape of how important entrepreneurial is an innovation and I think that has been really good. You’ve got … I mean the best thing to do is leading by example so if you have a whole lot of people who have done very well as entrepreneurs like the big stars, they inspire just like sport stars inspire young kids at school to become sporting heroes, if they’ve got the, you know, the athletic and ball skills. So entrepreneurs are either … kids can see and uni students can see in action inspire others and it’s a bit … it’s the same as gender equity. There’s nothing as compelling for young women than seeing older women do things that they can aspire to and that’s was actually … when I became the Lord Mayor, that was actually one of the, you know, some of the letters made me cry. These young girls who said “I’m so glad you’ve become the Lord Mayor because I’d like to be the Lord Mayor one day”. That sort of … and I think Julia Gillard has spoken of that when she was the first female Prime Minister. There is something, you know, and its actually great, not that the person who’s just got the jobs great, certainly in my case, but its actually the example you’re showing to younger people to come up through the system with those aspirations and that’s the best thing about it actually. To me, its that, you know, breaking a glass ceiling, you know, whether you’re an entrepreneurs or a woman leader of whatever you’re doing, if you can break that glass ceiling or that barrier to achievement, then other people look around and say “well if they can do it, I can do it too” which is the best possible way of getting people’s perceptions to change.

Jenelle: You were awarded an Order of Australia in 2011 for Distinguished Service to Community, Local Government and Business. What did that mean to you?

Lucy: Oh, I was kind of like shocked and amazed. When I opened the letter, I was just so “wow”. I was absolutely surprised. It meant a lot to me. It was very very, you know, I was very moved by that and you know, quite awed and shocked actually. I would say shocked and awed would be the first reaction, but you know, it was actually a lovely recognition and I’m deeply grateful for it and never expected it, to be honest with you, and so it was a surprise and a wonderful surprise. You get all sorts of surprises in life and that was a wonderful one.

Jenelle: That would have been an amazing letter to open up that day I am sure.

Lucy: Yes.

Jenelle: You were recently appointed Chair of the Opera House Trust. Now in what, I think, a beautifully book-ended story if this true what I am about to say but I heard somewhere that you were at the opening of the Opera House as a young girl, is that true?

Lucy: Yeah, I went. It was sort of my first time I ever went to something as a young teenager, I think I was about 14 in … to the opening of the Opera House because my … I had a godfather, a very dear godfather was like a grandfather to me who was a judge and he never got married so he took me as his date to the opening of the Opera House in 1973 and it was a really amazing experience. An experience sitting in the concert hall. I’ll never forget seeing the pink seats. They were the things that amazed me the most, I think. I’d been listening to Beethoven’s 9th and everything. It was just like so unbelievable. It was a really … a very important moment in Sydney’s history and certainly in my growing up kind of history because I got into an evening dress and stuff for the first time and so it was just like a magical night in Sydney and next year, next October will be the 50th anniversary of the Opera House so it will be amazing to be there as a fully grown up Chair of Trustees when I was there at the opening as a, you know, my first time dressed up for a black tie event.

Jenelle: What a beautiful beautiful book-ended story there. Now Lucy, you just seem endlessly motivated to do more and to be more. I have to ask. How do you find the capacity and the energy?

Lucy: Well, because I like what I do. So I went to a speech and one of the mantras is “do what you love and love what you do” and that’s actually been a very important mantra for me and I’ve always tried to follow it. So, you know, absolutely do what you love and love what you do. Its actually a really good lesson for life. Now not everybody has the opportunity to always do that and let’s be honest, not everybody always does what they love, like cleaning the kitchen or doing the ironing or laundry or something but, you know, as much as you possibly can, direct yourself to doing things that you love because it gives you a thrill and you think its important and valuable. So I’ve always tried to do that.

Jenelle: Fantastic.

The last three! Three fast questions on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: I’m going to finish up with a really fast three. Simple questions, don’t overthink it. What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?

Lucy: Well I’ve been binge watching television. I’m watching … I’m reading, you know, like all television shows and everybody’s watched them so I won’t dwell on them but I’m reading a really interesting book about modernism, about the whole modernist movement and, you know, how its fed into design etc written by a great academic, Australian academic who’s worked in the US called Terry Smith. I find that whole modernist movement very interesting. I don’t agree with everything that arose out of it. I love that and what was the other one … reading …

Jenelle: Reading, watching or listening to right now.

Lucy: Listening … I listen … I have to say I listen to the ABC just about … I mean Malcolm is a real podcast person. I do podcast … I love 99% invisible and I love bits of this American life but mostly I just love listening to the radio and sometimes I listen to podcasts on the radio but its great to listen to things as they happen. I’m just … I’m fascinated by current events and there’s been so much happening in the last two years, its hard to sort of step outside what's happening in the present.

Jenelle: That’s it. What is your super power? Now this can be something that’s additive to the world. In your case, it probably would or it could be a useless party trick?

Lucy: Oh I’ll tell you … I’ll show you my super power. It’s the grandchild fascinator.

Jenelle: What!

Lucy: This is my super power.

Jenelle: Oh okay, I’m going to have to give voice to this. Its where you curl each finger over the one preceding it [laugh].

Lucy: Yes, my grandchildren call me “Gaga” so this is what we call Gaga fingers.

Jenelle: You know what, I can do that too.

Lucy: Oh right, so you’ve got the same super power.

Jenelle: I’ve got the same.

Lucy: You’re the first one I’ve met with the same super power. See, there you go.

Jenelle: Oh god, I knew that there was something we had in common. [laugh]. All right snap. Now if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be.

Lucy: You know, do your best and put one foot ahead of the other when things are tough.

Jenelle: Oh that’s perfect. Lucy, can I say thank you so much for your time today. I’ve taken a lot out of our conversation. What I will walk away with amongst many other things is your clear and genuine and unbridled curiosity to find out more and I think you do that, always driven by your values of equality and your strong sense of social justice. I think its clear that you approach opportunities with an open mind and as you say, an open heart which means that you don’t pre-judge and you’re receptive to hearing and learning every step of the way. I love that you have such a keen awareness of the world around you, whether that’s the trees and how much shade they’re affording you or, you know, the death of Martin Luther King or whatever is happening in the world events around you. I love your ability to bridge the macro with the micro. So you might be thinking about something that is connecting nations together and you’ll be just as much thinking about well let's fix up the graffiti on the street in order to get us there. I think your learnings around exercising soft power to effect change in the strength of using respect and persuasion and collaboration to do that. Its hard not to be infected by your motivation for what the future can hold, whether that’s in cities, or in women’s equality or tech and innovation or entrepreneurism or sustainable economies, its all there for the taking and thank you for being so inspiring to others. For being an exemplar, for being someone who will show that we can break glass ceiling and, of course as you say, do what you love and love what you do and if you’re feeling, you know, nervous about it, just do it, put one foot in front of the other. So thank you so much Lucy.

Lucy: Thank you so much Jenelle.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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