Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Jessica Morrison

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change. The good, the bad and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: Hi, I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to the Change Happens podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lesson learnt along the way. Today I’m joined by Australian rower and two time Olympian, Jessica Morrison, who represented Australia at the Tokyo 2020 Olympics and won gold in the women’s coxless four event. Jess also happens to work at EY so she balances her sport with work commitments in EY’s People Advisory Services practice where she helps businesses integrate the people agenda within their business strategy and design. Now in this episode, we’re going to learn so much more about Jess’ story, what it’s like to be an elite athlete and what the lessons are in there for us. Now, of course, being a dual Olympian is something that most of us can’t lay claim to but dealing with changing conditions, managing pressures, finding the right balance, being told we can’t do something are definitely experiences most of us have had plenty of exposure to. So I’m looking forward to exploring this and much more with Jess. Jess, welcome.

Jessica: Thank you so much for having me.

Jenelle: I’m very excited to have you here now. A huge congratulations on your recent accomplishments at the games.

Jessica: Thank you. It was an amazing experience and obviously thrilled to actually get there in the end after much speculation whether it was going to happen or not but, you know, I felt like we used the extra year of training to our advantage and, you know, stoked to come away with a win.

Jenelle: Oh it’s fantastic. Now before we get into more discussion about Tokyo, lets go way back to the beginning. Keen to hear more about your upbringing and how it is that you found yourself in an elite sport.

Jessica: Yeah, I am the eldest of four and I grew up in Melbourne and I’ve got very active parents who always encourage us to do sport growing up and competitive young siblings and, you know, I started off trying a bunch of different sports in school and I was quite the fond skier and we used to live at Falls Creek every winter. So I would do home school for the term with my siblings up there and we’d do race club and, you know, I was probably the worse of my siblings because I started a little bit later on but, you know, all three of them represented Australia at a junior level which was great …

Jenelle: Being the worse [laugh], out of a bunch of siblings who are competing for Australia. It feels like you are probably not too shabby.

Jessica: Well yeah, I think I’m definitely sort of maybe I shine in the water or on the water but like on the snow, that sort of the claim to fame but … so I guess just having exposure at a young age to competitive sport and the opportunity to try a whole lot of different things growing up and, you know, I chose swimming and I decided to take on pretty seriously and sort of narrow my focus in on that in high school and, you know, I never wanted to be a rower. I … swimming was my dream and it always clashed with the rowing programme at school because they trained at the same times and so, you know, doubled in rowing a little bit at maybe year 8 but I opted out and decided to continue on with swimming and pursued that, you know, after school when I took a scholarship at the Australian Institute of Sport in Canberra and moved up there and did uni at ANU and really wanted to sort of make it in swimming and a couple of years into it, I got injured and had a shoulder reconstruction and, you know, my swimming career was basically over and I met Kim Brennan at the time who also lived in Canberra and trained at the AIS and she suggested I try rowing. You know, I was pretty upset with, you know, not being able to train properly with swimming. I was, you know, rehabbing away, had a dodgy shoulder and she said “you know, you’ve got the right determination, you’ve got the right build, you’d be great at it, like come on down to the shed and I’ll introduce you to my coach” and you know, off I went and, you know, you could say the rest is history but that was sort of at the end of 2013 and I tried that and I made my first Olympic team two and half years later. So, I guess …

Jenelle: Oh Jess, I’m going to have to stop you. That story. I mean you’re telling the story like just a bouncing ball, this is naturally what will happen after one thing after another. That is not a normal story for the rest of us. We don’t move from high levels of skiing to national swimming to then suddenly going “nah, okay I’ll go to rowing” and then win medals from there. So I want to take a step back for a minute. What was it like for you in 2013 when you had that injury. You know, you made your choice, you know, oh to have the options that you did. You’re obviously an amazing athlete but you made your choice and you said I’m going to be a swimmer, you had that injury and you realised you wouldn’t be able to swim. What was that like, that realisation.

Jessica: I think, like I’d always sort of told myself, like you’re only good at swimming, you’ve tried everything, you know, your whole … all your capabilities in sport is directed at swimming. That’s what you have trained to do. So I had it in my head that like, if I didn’t make it in swimming, I’d be sort of worthless as an athlete and so to be injured and, you know, that was pretty devastating and sometimes you can’t help that when it happens, which is always really frustrating but, you know, as a result of being injured and sort of unable to rehab, you know, in a really quick period of time, I lost my scholarship at the AIS and, you know, sitting in a room with, you know, high performance directors, sort of essentially saying I wasn’t good enough or they didn’t think that I was good enough to make the Commonwealth Games team in 2014 and, you know, as a result the Olympic Games wasn’t looking good so unfortunately we’re going to give your place to somebody else and that was completely heart breaking for me, you know. I felt like my dreams were just shattered and, you know, nobody believed in me and I was willing to do whatever it took at the time to become fit enough so that, you know, when my shoulder came good, I could sort of jump back into the pool seamlessly but, you know, setbacks happen to everybody and I just never expected it to happen to me and, you know, I was completely shattered and it took me years to recover from that. Like, I just …

Jenelle: I’ll bet!

Jessica: … so …

Jenelle: And how long … I mean how long exactly. So, you mentioned that … I mean these are big words Jess. You know, I felt worthless, not good enough, nobody believes in me. They are huge huge issues to overcome. How long was it between sort of facing that kind of event and those feelings to then, and we’re going to talk about Kim in a moment but meeting Kim and making that decision. You know, you’re going from the top of your chosen sport in swimming to possibly the bottom in rowing and trying to figure that out. How long was that period of time when you made that decision and what was that like to sort of take the leap and go “yeah, I’ll start again”.

Jessica: Yeah, it was … I think the idea that somebody was like, you know, chose rowing and you could be at the next Olympic Games and I was like “sure, sign me up” but you know, what the process involved to get there, I didn’t quite understand how patient you really needed to be in accepting the fact that you needed to be, you know, start from ground up and, you know, I thought that I had sort of moved laterally over and just be at the same level I was rowing. So initially the idea sounded great but the reality was really tough and those are the times that doubt crept in, when I was, you know, getting beaten by school kids at regattas, you know, training so hard and I broke my rib and hurt my back a couple of months into it and, you know, that just made the process go even longer. So, you know, those are the times where you really think “oh maybe I’ll just go back to swimming, the window is still open there and how long is this rowing going to take for me to get to an adequate level where I’ll feel satisfied”. So, you know, it probably took, you know, at least two years. Like even at the Olympic Games in Rio, I was fairly new to the sport and I still never really felt like, you know, I mastered it or I was actually, you know, able to be the world’s best which is what I’ve always wanted to be. So it’s like, even after I had successfully transferred and sort of made an Olympic team, even then I still didn’t feel like I truly, like belong in the sport, like I was so new to it and, you know, when I started swimming I was, you know, eight years old and that’s been my home and my family for such a long period of time so you know, it took years and I eventually got there but it’s such a weird transition to make. Like you know, when you’re sort of at your low 20s, when you know, a lot of my friends had their life set up for them and they’re on really sure paths to whatever it was that they were wanting to be successful in and here I was still trying to figure out what sport I’m good at.

Jenelle: It’s incredible. Now, tell me about … more about Kim when she came into your life and what it was that, you know, how did she convince you to make that leap.

Jessica: I first met Kim at the end of 2012, once she had got back from the London Olympic Games. I’d always … I knew her from back in the day when I was in school and I think, you know, our sports captain at school and she presented at like a girls sport Victoria dinner and I was like “wow, you’re my idol, I want to be like you” and then here I was all those years later at the AIS and we were at the Altitude House, just on a week of training up in there and she was there and I was there and Scott Brennan was also there and it was just the three of us and that’s when I first met her. You know, she had just got back from the games and was training for her second or third Olympic cycle and I think that sort of where we really got to know each other on a personal level and so, you know, from time to time I’d see her, you know, at the dining hall or in the gym or just passing by, you know, on campus and, you know when I was injured in 2013, you know, she’d see me sort of walk around pretty upset and, you know, not long after I had that meeting where I’d lost my scholarship, I ran into her again and, you know, told her the news and she kind of was my saviour in a way. Like she was like, oh you know, your sporting career is not over. Like why don’t you try rowing. Like you know, welcomed me with open arms into that community and that family and …

Jenelle: It really speaks to the power of mentoring and you know, being taken under someone’s wing and feeling that someone has your best interests at heart, right!

Jessica: Yeah I think, just recognising a few key attributes that I had. Like you know, just willing to sort of go above and beyond, you know, when I met her in the Altitude House in the year prior to that, my coach hadn’t asked me to go there. I’d asked myself if I can do a week in that Altitude House and just get the training benefits of it and I think she admired that. That I sort of just went out on my own and wanted to sort of just go that extra few yards.

Jenelle: That extra mile. Well just … I mean, just on that, actually I’m really struck by this ability, for people to be so excellent at so many things. Kim Brennan, she also suffered an injury. She changed to rowing from hurdling and then became a 16 time national champion, 2 time world champion, 3 time Olympian, Olympic gold medallist herself. She was a qualified lawyer, now a partner in tech consulting at EY. Like that story as well is just unbelievable. You and Kim are the kind of people that make the rest of us ask ourselves “bloody hell, what are we doing with our lives [laugh]”. Now I can either conclude that rowing is a very easy sport to win medals in, looking at you two, or you two are modern day miracles but picking up on your point there she saw some attributes. Perhaps there’s some underlying attributes and disciplines that you both have that make your success transferrable in different contexts. There’s an expression. You master that discipline, you master them all. What would you say to that. Is that what you think and what are those underlying attributes and disciplines, do you think.

Jessica: Yeah, I think, you know, when you do say, draw the parallels between me and Kim and I’m like “oh god, am I just following my whole life in the footsteps of Kim”, like off to rowing and off to EY …

Jenelle: There could be worse things than that [laugh].

Jessica: … and then who knows what’s next but I think like, you know, Kim trains so hard and I aspired to be like her for so long and, you know, I have a huge amount of respect for her and I have a lot of respect for someone and they come and give you advice, I generally tend to follow it and so felt like what she said to me and her belief in me really meant a lot. Personally I kind of set no limits for myself. I think, you know, when I think about the key attributes to be successful in lots of different areas, like I just feel like the sky is the limit and I’ve always sort of had this deep sense of, you know, am I good enough, when will I be good enough. Like was that performance good enough. Like nothing is ever good enough, you know.

Jenelle: That must be exhausting though Jess to carry that.

Jessica: It is exhausting but it’s kind of what pushes me to keep striving for more. Like you know, I think like when will I ever be satisfied. Like when I cross the finish line in the gold medal position at the Olympics, I was like, immediately like “oh god, we didn’t win by enough” or you know …

Jenelle: Really! Is that what you thought. Oh my god, take the win!

Jessica: [laugh] and then I was like “well, we could have done xyz in the middle of the race, maybe that would have like got us in front a little bit more. I’m just like so immediately critical of myself and my performances and you know, sometimes it’s a bad thing. I have to sort of … coaches always say, you know, “take a step back Jess and just, you know” …

Jenelle: Yeah how do you manage that. I mean I can see how you use it to drive you which is phenomenal but I can imagine there must be those tipping points where it goes the other way. What do you do then when you … when it overtakes you and you feel a bit more crushed by the “am I good enough” questions.

Jessica: I’m not sure. I think … I think, you know, sometimes I’m striving to win all the time, to be the best that I can be and that’s a great feeling when that happens but when I don’t win, you know, the magnitude of that loss is maybe greater. So it’s a weird like psychology at play there when you’re so hard on yourself, you know, you want to be the best, you want to win by a lot, you’re never sure when you’re going to be satisfied and then when you do achieve something that’s pretty good, yeah you feel great but the magnitude of that is maybe not as great as the loss when I don’t win. So it’s trying to stay out of that domain, I guess, and I’m not sure if it’s deep rooted from, you know, my transition from swimming and being told I wasn’t good enough. Like am I on this mission to just be good enough at something. Like when will I be good enough. I think maybe there’s a link there and I’m not sure when I’ll sort of truly feel satisfied with what I do but, you know, I keep striving and I keep going out and experimenting and taking on lots of different challenges.

Jenelle: It’s such an important thing, you know, I’ve always thought that anyone’s strength overused can become their achilles heel. You know you’re clearly a massive driver and that is your strength, that is your, you know, super power that allows you to move forward but so important. At least you’re aware of the implications … the shadows of that attribute and how that can cast on yourself and others. So maybe we’re all works in progress Jess so definitely one to keep working on and hoping that you take care of yourself and are kind to yourself. You’re an incredible athlete and human. So if I say nothing else on this podcast, I really want you to know I think you’re an amazing individual. So please do know that you are plenty good enough my friend.

Jessica: Thanks Jenelle.

Jenelle: Counselling session over [laugh] but I’d like to, you know, just recognising that, you know, we’ve talked about this transition from swimming to rowing. The other remarkable thing about that is it’s … you’ve transitioned from a solo sport of swimming where it really is all down to you, something that you have full control over and we’ve talked about, you know, how much of a driver you are. So you can fully control how you perform in the pool. Then you moved over to a team sport of rowing where obviously there’s at least one other if not three others that you’re working with and depending on. What was that transition like and what did you learn about yourself in relation to teaming.

Jessica: Great question. I reflect on this a lot I think. It took me a while to really understand, like the importance of team and what that meant. Like I was always such a … like a self-motivated, self-driven person. I always tended to do the individual sports in school, you know, skiing, athletics, swimming. I never really did any team sports and I really liked to have complete control of the outcome of a race, for a result and so when I moved over to rowing, you know, the biggest challenge, you know, I’m a bit of an introvert, like you’ve got to talk a lot in the boat. Like somebody has to call, like whatever boat you’re in, you’ve got to learn to work with people, you’ve got to communicate in a way that narrows everybody’s focus to one thing and keep everybody’s head in the boat and so just sort of learning to communicate with people was the first challenge and then learning how to use people to get the best out of your boat, sort of the second challenge and how to motivate people, like what's the competitive edge. I think how you measure a good rower is often how adaptable you are and how well you work with people and, you know, that’s a huge work in practice. Like it’s not something that, you know, you could just get that overnight or you can just rock up to a training session and you’ve got to earn people’s trust and you’ve got to demonstrate an ability to really understand people. So you know, my journey with rowing, I started off in the women’s eight at Rio. You know, I was sort of 12½% of that boat and so, you know, I had a small impact on the outcome of that boat and, you know, that was a weird transition to go literally from swimming one event to hopping into a boat where I’m one out of nine including the coxswain and, you know, really wanted to make sure that I could feel like I contributed and finding out how you contribute in a team situation is hard to navigate as well. So as I sort of matured over the years and became sort of more of an integral player of the team and physically got better and technically got better, I was able to sort of really uncover those things that, you know, really matter in working in the team and I think, like you’ve got to make sure everybody feels like an equal and then you’ve got to make sure everybody feels heard. So when we go out for a rowing session, if you’re in an eight or a pair or a four, doesn’t matter what it is, you stop, you know, when we turn around or whenever we do stop which is, you know, it is often and you ask “what did you think of that piece or what can we do better” like making sure you ask the people, give them a chance to feel heard to contribute to problem solving because you’re constantly problem solving in rowing. You’re figuring out, you know, if the platform is off or if the boat is not quite straight, like you know, trying to figure out what we have got to do technically to fix that and everybody has a different perspective.

Jenelle: It’s fascinating. Jess, you’re talking about so many big things around communication, around trust, around getting the best out of others, around problem solving. Did you just figure this out as you went along or did you actually do some, you know, teamwork leadership training. How did that just evolve. Did it just evolve or did you go through some formal training on it as well.

Jessica: There’s definitely not a rulebook for like, you know, how to be a good rower or how to be a good teammate. You kind of have to figure it out, like you know, on the job. I am sort of like, as I said before, a bit of an introvert, you know, not as outspoken as some of my other teammates but I do consider myself a bit of a hard worker and I sort of lead by example and my time at the National Training Centre, I was awarded, you know, a leadership award in recognition for, you know, my leadership contribution to the group and then you know, one day my coach said “Jess, you know, that award meant something, you know, you’re a leader whether you see it or not, what you say matters, speak up more, you know. So after sessions, speak up more in the boat, you know”. So I started to do that a little bit more …

Jenelle: You found your voice, it’s amazing.

Jessica: Yeah I got a bit of confidence, people did start listening to what I had to say. It just kind of took off from there but gave … a bit of a nudge from my coach and a bit of recognition from the wider group sort of gave me the confidence to sort of, to use my voice and to help other people.

Jenelle: Let’s turn to Rio. You were, if I understand it correctly, advised that you were going to be included in the Olympics in Rio only a fortnight before you were to race. What was that like. It feels like that must a bit of a scurry [laugh] and what was that like compared to the period of time of Tokyo. So the two totally different circumstances. One’s much shorter, there’s uncertainty in there, training would have been different. Tell me about Rio first and what it was like to find out that you were going to be in.

Jessica: Exactly, they’re two totally different Olympic experiences and compared to the normal Olympic games, both of them are fairly unconventional with disrupted training times before. So when I was selected into the women’s eight in 2016, the boat hadn’t yet qualified for the Olympics so a couple of months after I was selected into the boat we were afforded the opportunity to go to final qualification regatta. We needed to come top two, then we placed third so we missed out by one spot, another devastating moment in my career and I was like “oh god, maybe the Olympics just isn’t for me, you know”. So everyone parted ways and went home. We didn’t row together because all the girls were from different parts of the country and then sort of in the background while all this is happening, the world anti-doping agency is sort of looking into primarily Russia. Some of those people were in rowing and some of the girls were sort of getting their hopes up that maybe the Russians would be withdrawn and I was like “god, that is never going to happen”. Like all of a sudden, sort of started bubbling away more and I think a lot of the athletics team got withdrawn so I was like “oh wow, this is really real”. Like we were all sort of called into a conference call with our CEO. This was about three weeks before the opening ceremony and he kind of basically said “you know girls, Russia has been withdrawn and because we placed third at FQR we’re now the next eligible place for the Olympics, is this something you would want to do” and of course we all said yes and then he’s like …

Jenelle: No thank you, I’m busy [laugh].

Jessica: … right, well pack your bags”. You’re off to Rio and I was in the kitchen with my parents, just had dinner and I was like on the call and I turned to them and gave them the thumbs up and I was like “I’m going to the Olympic Games”. Like one of the girls was in Dubai and all of us were everywhere and we were like “right, okay everyone get on a flight, come to Melbourne, we’re going to have our three week campaign in Melbourne and just see what we can do”. So a fantastic opportunity, I guess. You know, a big stance on, you know, clean sport and so it was great to go but obviously we weren’t given the same preparation that our competitors were given and you know, we sort of set out and maybe thought we could make the final and that would be a good result. So compare that with the Tokyo Olympic games, much more time in the sport, you know, I’m way more experienced and I was out to win a gold medal, not just be a competitor which I was in Rio. The Tokyo games comes along and again, didn’t you know, see that it would be delayed, another curve ball thrown at us. You know, in March of 2020, we had just done our national selections. I was selected into the pair and literally two weeks later, an announcement came out that the Olympics were postponed a year and …

Jenelle: What was that like?

Jessica: Well it was a tough pill to swallow because it was like, you go from being at a real high, like I’ve just been selected on the team. I’m really fit and it’s like, oh now we’re shifting the goalposts a whole year, stay motivated, stay fit and we’re going to do a whole another round of selections and by the way, we’re going into lockdown for probably six months. So you guys have to leave and go home and train out of your garage. It was like a lot to process in a really short period of time. I think the biggest challenge at the time was flipping that setback into opportunity and realising I’m not going to dwell on the fact that the games are next year, but I’m going to get excited about the opportunity, that I can get a lot better in a years’ time, how much gains can I make, I can present at an Olympic games a lot better next year than I would this year. So …

Jenelle: Well it seems like you did turn that into an opportunity but what … I mean how challenging was that to turn that back into an opportunity. How challenging was it to work, to train out of your garage and not with others.

Jessica: I think everybody handled it differently. I was lucky that, you know, I was working at EY at the time on a part time basis so I had something to fall back to. So it was like, okay now rowing is not going to be the major focus for a period of time. I want to throw myself into work. So I immediately had something to shift my focus to, to feel like I could do a good job and add value. Some of the other girls sort of postponed uni or you know, weren’t even doing uni or working so you know, to sort of be left with your thoughts for 24 hours a day was potentially a bit more challenging but I think, you know, still trying to stay really tight as a team is really important. You know, our coaches did a really good job of still keeping it really big picture, set goals for us that are sort of short term and okay what are we going to do this month, what are we going to do next month, sort of really bite sized things just to focus on rather than just think about “oh the extra year the entire time” but for me, just having something to fall back on to immediately really helped with that.

Jenelle: But Jess you talked about your coaches working with you and the team trying to keep you all connected and working together during lockdown. I feel a high level of relatability to that and people listening will certainly feel a relatability with that given our lockdown and the challenge in teams feeling connected and engaged and motivated whilst separated for such a long period of time. How did your coaches help. How did you and your teams maintain that connection whilst in lockdown.

Jessica: Yeah, I think like why our team is so successful is because like we’ve got a very strong culture. We’ve got a culture that, you know, we’re hugely grateful for what we have and we’re very big picture focussed and the coaches try to sort of keep that going, keep the momentum going, like we had a group chat that we were typing in every day and posting our, like fun photos, just trying to make it fun but stay connected. We did sessions over Zoom. Still very much big picture focus even when we were apart and we tried as best as we could to sort of do sessions over Zoom but you know, lots of reminders of what we’re doing this for and, you know, why we are here and everything like that. So I think, like in any kind of uncertainty or murky waters is just the ability to sort of hold the wheel if you are kind of like steering a ship and not overcorrect and the coaches did a great job at kind of holding the wheel and keeping us on track, keeping our heads in the game and daily reminders of what we are doing this for, why we’re doing it was really important.

Jenelle: Oh it’s fantastic and Jess, you know, I’m reflecting on this, you know, the setbacks and the, you know, will we/won’t we, yes we have/no we won’t and I think about, many of us, you know, we look at the Olympics finals, we see those medal winning moments but there’s so many stages of achievements and milestones along the way, whether accepted into a national training facility, getting sponsors, making the Olympic team, getting onto a flight, getting off a flight, stepping onto the Olympic village, yet you come across as a very measured person. How do you manage those ups and downs and the highs and lows. Do you allow yourself to feel those things or do you stay as steady as you present, at least to me right now through that.

Jessica: I think because I’ve experienced like what I felt like with my real low and you know, my swimming career ending, I never want to feel a huge magnitude of a high or a low and so I do tend to stay quite steady and when I do win a race, it’s like oh that’s great but then I’m … maybe my critiquing immediately is a way of trying not let the high get too high and then, you know, the reverse for the low. Just trying to keep the magnitudes as small as possible. I think that’s just the way that I like to live my life. I think many years ago one of the athletes on our team, Josh Dunkley-Smith who I look up to a lot, gave some advice to me that sort of stuck with me and he said “if you’re not happy before the medal, you won’t be happy after the medal” and that, you know, it’s something that we all strive towards as elite athletes. Yes we want to go to the games and, you know, the ultimate success is an Olympic gold medal but it certainly doesn’t change who you are, it doesn’t change the rest of your life and if you’re not happy beforehand, you’re not going to be happy afterwards necessarily. So I’ve always sort of thought in the back of my mind, like I’m just going live my life, I’m going to challenge myself in ways and I’m going to try to be the best that I’m going to be and, you know, if I do all that right, then the gold medal will take care of itself but it’s certainly not something that I’m going to feel like if I attain this one thing, it’s going to be life changing and make me a happy person.

Jenelle: You’re not attaching your happiness and all your identity to that. I think that’s a great piece of advice. I think it’s too precarious to tether your happiness to something that’s as tenacious as getting a gold medal.

Jessica: Yeah, definitely. So I think just try to be or I at least try to be as flat lined as possible and, you know, maybe that’s inappropriate for times that you do well and you want to be … celebrate a lot but it’s just, I guess, it’s just the way I am and …

Jenelle: What about that you’ve got three others that were celebrating that gold with you in that … with that boat. Were all of them as tempered as you are. Were they lifting you up because you’ve got a few more people who are willing to just ride that big high.

Jessica: Yeah, we all had different reactions. I think, so Annabelle and myself who are stern pair of the four, we also were competing in the pairs so we were racing two events and the typhoon at the time, sort of reshuffled the days of racing. So you know, the semi-final of the pair which was supposed to happen the day before our four final actually got changed to two hours after the four final. So as soon as I crossed the line, it was like yes, job 1 done. Now I’ve got to think of my race in two hours time, that’s a semi-final. So I think that’s kind of what didn’t allow me to feel that high as being too high. Rosie who sat behind me, she was, you know, crying. She just had that wave of emotion. She was ecstatic and really emotional and Lucy, you know, celebrating, hands in the air, just you know, and I turned around and I was like “did we win”. I didn’t even know if we had won. Then I was like “oh great, we won, that’s great”. Okay, you know, celebrate for five minutes and then off to my next thing. So everyone kind of … we all have very different personalities and as a result, you know, have different reactions to things. So I think, you know, we’re all very respectful of how we operate and I’m sure they wouldn’t have minded if I wasn’t, you know, hands in the air and crying and over the moon like they were.

Jenelle: Hey Jess, do you have the gold medal near you.

Jessica: I do.

Jenelle: If you don’t mind, can you just hold that in your hands and tell me, looking at that gold medal …

Jessica: Yeah, I’m holding it now.

Jenelle: … and all that’s gone into that. What does it feel like.

Jessica: [laugh] oh, it feels great, honestly and it’s just like it’s a medal for so many people, not just a medal for me. Like, you know, I wish I sort of had the chance to say that but, you know, when you are standing on the dais and you have this and you’re looking into an empty crowd, like it’s the time that you think about, oh everyone that has helped you get there and you know, some of the proudest moments over the past months has been reaching out to the people that have been so impactful in my life and letting them know “oh yeah, you made a huge impact on me and that’s, you know, that helped me to achieve the gold medal”. You know, whether it’s a sports teacher or, you know, a swimmer coach when I was 15 or something like that. So the medal is so heavy and maybe that’s symbolic like of the fact that there are so many people that this is for, not just me.

Jenelle: Oh so good. Well rest assured. As you know, we were all watching you and [laugh] lots of great photos of the firm stopping to watch you race, it was amazing. Now speaking of the firm, another big change in your life was your decision to join EY. I imagine that would have been quite a foreign world. I mean it’s a different … like I’ve grown up in consulting but you know, I can recognise it’s a whole different language in it’s own world into itself. Tell me about what that change was like for you.

Jessica: That was a pretty big change, you know, for someone who had spent all of their life, like wearing athletic gear and then, you know, taking up a job to go into an office and wear business attire. I was like “I don’t even own any of that”.

Jenelle: [laugh], don’t need to anymore [laugh], we’re all at home.

Jessica: Exactly. That was the first kind of challenge and I remember when I accepted the job at EY, my mum organised a professional stylist appointment at David Jones and I went in there and just went and bought some work clothes because, you know, I owned nothing. So that was the first sort of foreign world sort of insight and then, you know, going into the offices and just feeling like you have to be this polished person, that’s you know, wearing really nice clothes and having your makeup on and your hair done really nicely, like I never wear makeup so that was another weird thing and being like this professional and I didn’t really know who I was as a professional. You know, I’ve got the credentials, I had just done a Bachelor of Economics and I’ve done an MBA and I pursued consulting because typically that’s the best avenue out of an MBA and the best skillset that I had but then again, I was just like I’ve never been here, I don’t know who I am as a professional. Like where do I, you know, can I joke about things that I, you know, normally joke about with people or, you know, is it not appropriate. So I think that was a bit of a shift, you know and I didn’t even know what a calendar invite was [laugh]. So I was just kind of just learning the way and I think I definitely sent some wrong calendar invites, mucked up the time zones and …

Jenelle: We’ve all done that Jess, in or out of the boat. I swear we’ve all done it [laugh].

Jessica: It’s just feeling like you really in your comfort zone which was sport for me, you know, I know how to do well at that and then how do I do well in the business work. Like, you know, I’ve got the brains for it, but like, I don’t know how to talk to people, I don’t know how to write an email, I don’t know how to wear proper clothes. Like you know, that was … that was my memory of the transition to EY [laugh].

Jenelle: What do you think … were you surprised by any things that translated really easily from your sporting world across to the business world. Were you like “yes, now that I’ve got the clothes on and you know, figured up how to set up a calendar invite”, actually there’s a lot of other stuff that I already have that’s highly transferrable. What would they be.

Jessica: I think, what I was talking to you before about teamwork and how to work in a team and ensuring people feel like equals and feel like they’re heard. I felt like I was able to handle myself quite well in team meetings and although I found client meetings, at first pretty scary, just the ability to sit back and make sure, you know, you hear the person talking and make sure they feel heard and understood and then start talking. It’s just like a very simple skill like that, that I felt like I was really comfortable with. You know, obviously, you know, any tasks that I was given by a senior manager or a manager, it was a real transfer of trust, like they were trusting that I was going to do this, you know, and turn it over at the time that they … that we’d agreed and that was a very familiar thing for me. It’s like being asked to do a training session or something and sit on these what's for the ergo and it’s like “yep, I’ll do that, that’s what my role is and you can trust me to do that”. So I feel like any time like a task was given to me, I really knew what that meant and it meant like that transfer of trust because if I could deliver that on time and to a high quality, then that was really what it was about with feeling like I could comfortably navigate my way around the office and do good work. So I think those are the kinds of things that I felt initially that, you know, my experience in sport helps me with EY.

Jenelle: It’s fantastic and certainly one of the observations that I know in the past Kim has made of you is that you have a relentless quest to learn, even when no one is watching. What would you say to that. Would you agree that in however you have applied that, in the business world as well.

Jessica: Well I’m … yeah I’m definitely always keen to learn, as I am always keen to strive for more and try to be a better person and contribute more knowledge. You know, I had some spare time on my hands last year and I was like, you know, what will I do. I’ll do a company’s directors course. It looks like on LinkedIn, lots of people have done this, maybe it will help me one day and you know, my Dad previously recommended me doing that one day and I was like, just do it and I learn about being a board director, obviously a fair way of being one of those people but that’s just an example of something that I was happily able to sign up to.

Jenelle: Wow!

Jessica: I was so close to doing the same to do a Pilates course just because I am interested in anatomy and I wanted to just learn about the human body a bit more. Totally not, you know, relevant to EY and I didn’t really need that for sport but, you know, I was definitely considering doing something like that. I think, you know, I think of my brain as like a sponge and I just want to absorb as much as I can and sometimes I’m like “oh we’re not here for that long on earth, like you know, I want to learn as much as I can” and I think that’s just … I’m just definitely really hungry for knowledge and always just trying to see what I can do with what I know and how much more of an impact I can make with you, more things I can bring to the table.

Jenelle: Wow, that’s amazing. How do you … have you … I mean last I checked we all still have 24 hours in a day to work with. How do you manage all of those athletic responsibilities, along side your professional responsibilities and you can whack in an AICD course, when you’ve got … you know, all of these things. You know, how do you manage time and energy probably.

Jessica: I think I learnt how to manage time well when I was in school. I did IB which is the International Baccalaureate diploma and, you know, it required a lot more work than BCE and I really wanted to do it and I remember my, you know, the head of IB at the time said “you know, Jess you want to do this over three years, instead of two years because you’re trying to manage your sporting commitments and you know, not sure if you will be able to complete this to the standard that [00.38.57] girls sort of achieve” and I was like, “no I can do it, thank you but no thanks”. I think just the structure of school just taught me how to translate that structure into my life after school. So I was like training, you know, wake up at 4.30 every morning, mum would take me to the pool, do a training session and then the bus would pick me up and take me to school. I’d work all day and then take the bus back to training and I’d come home and eat and study and go to bed and you know, doing that when I was really young just taught me the habit of like how to use every hour of your day and allocate it to something, whether it’s sport or, you know, academics and I guess I just continued on with that practice after school and it’s no different when I was working in EY. I would just, you know, train in the morning, set very clear boundaries about when you’re on or off for work and I guess just using the momentum of having a lot on your plate kind of helps me be really efficient and do a good job at things … if that makes sense.

Jenelle: That’s unbelievable! It does … well yes. I am thinking through my own diary [00.40.05], there’s a bit of time in there. What’s downtime for you look like, tell me you have some.

Jessica: Honestly I love a Sunday. I just sit on the couch at home with my sister and we watch Keeping up with the Kardashians. Like I do love some trash TV, some reality TV.

Jenelle: Me too.

Jessica: That’s the ultimate downtime but otherwise I do love to be in the outdoors a lot. Hiking, you know, I love being up in the snow skiing, I kind of love being off my phone. I’m not really on social media so I don’t find I get dragged into that hole too often of scrolling [laugh].

Jenelle: That’s going to save you a lot of time.

Jessica: But yeah, I do love just lounging on the couch and watching some reality TV and if I’m not doing that then being outside is equally amazing.

The last three. Three fast questions on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: Tell me, what are you reading, watching or listening to right now. Perhaps it’s the Kardashians but tell me, what's on your reading, watch or listening list.

Jessica: I’m reading “The Omnivore’s Dilemma” by Michael Pollan. He’s one of my favourite journalists and it’s kind of an old book, it’s maybe 15 years old and I guess it’s kind of about the intersection between learning about food we’re eating, where the food has come from and the impact that it has on the planet. So it’s really cool. I’m watching season 5 of money heist on Netflix, that’s definitely my favourite show …

Jenelle: And the top of your list.

Jessica: … and what do I listen to, I’m listening to a podcast called …

Jenelle: Change Happens!

Jessica: … Park Predators [laugh]. It’s probably like a little bit scary given that I’ve just been to a whole bunch of national parks but it’s about, you know, crime and you know, all of the crime that’s happened over the years in national parks.

Jenelle: I do have a real penchant for true crime podcasts as well actually. What is your super power. I feel like we’ve been talking for a long time about your super powers but this could be something that’s additive to the work Jess or a useless party trick.

Jessica: Oh, super power!

Jenelle: I think we’ve observed it in action, you can turn your hand to any sport and achieve goals.

Jessica: I can made sourdough bread and I have my own sourdough starter that lives in the fridge and I’m pretty competent in making bread. So I don’t know if you’d really do that at a party but that’s something …

Jenelle: You do in lockdown so it works, it works, I’ll take that. Now, if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be.

Jessica: Gee, I always loved this quote. “If the grass seems greener, it’s probably astroturf”.

Jenelle: [laugh]

Jessica: [laugh], I don’t know where I got that.

Jenelle: Love it, we’ll take that one. Jess I can’t thank you enough for your time. I know you’re actually … we didn’t mention the fact that you’re still in the US, slowly making your way back home but I wish you all the very best. I want to thank you for sharing with us so many insights. You know, it’s really … your hunger for knowledge and your desire to have greater impacts in and on the world – unbelievable. Your determination is unquestionable. The other thing I hear in your story Jess is your humility. You know, you can be determined but having the humility to start over, you know, when you’ve faced a setback and you start at the bottom and work your way back up. The humility to move from being the single solo person in a pool who can win to being part of nine in a boat and realising that you’re one twelfth of the equation but willing to do that. The power of role modelling and mentoring and your own quiet leadership where you lead by example. I’ve learned about the transferability of your teamwork skills and how you flip setbacks into opportunities. So much to take away from the chat and a massive thank you for your time.

Jessica: Oh thank you so much Jenelle. It was a pleasure talking to you and I think just to sum up, it’s kind of like for me, it’s not necessarily about what you achieve, it’s sort of how you are remembered and you know, bringing that back to humility and it’s not something that I’m very conscious of but someone once said that to me and it’s always been sort of like how you carry yourself and how you treat people and what you say and you know, it leaves a huge mark on the world, potentially greater than what you sort of achieve, you know, medal wise.

Jenelle: It’s so important, we’ll absolutely take that one away with us as well. Thank you so much Jess.

Jessica: Thanks Jenelle.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

END OF TAPE RECORDING