Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – David Thodey

Intro: Hi, I’m Jenelle McMaster and welcome to Session 3 of the “Change Happens” podcast, conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learnt along the way. Today I’m joined by David Thodey, who really needs no introduction but I don’t want to deny him one so let me just say he’s an incredible business leaders, focussed on innovation, technology and telecommunications, with over 40 years experience in various well known organisations. He was the former CEO of IBM Australia and New Zealand in 1999. He then became the CEO of Telstra in 2009. After he retired from Telstra in 2015, he joined the Commonwealth Science Industry and Research Organisation, the CSIRO as the chairperson. He is currently the chairperson of Tyro, Australia’s only independent banking institution and Zero, a cloud based accounting software provider. He is also a non-executive board director of Ramsay Healthcare, which is a global hospital group. Now when you listen to this, you can’t help but be struck by what an experienced thoughtful and humble leader David Thodey. We traverse a range of topics, like how he turned a maligned company into a leading customer centric organisation and we talk about painful public moments of truth in diversity and inclusiveness. We talk about innovation, we talk about identity and truth seeking and the intersection of technology and humanity. I loved this conversation. I took a lot away from it and I hope you do too. Here’s David Thodey.

Jenelle: Hey David, thank you so much for joining me today.

David: Oh its great to be here Jenelle.

Jenelle: Look I want to start by getting a little bit of background from you. I know you were born in Perth but tell me a bit about your family background and maybe, is there anything from those early years that influenced the values that you would say that you hold dear.

David: Yeah, that’s a really good question to start with. Yeah, I grew up in a really caring family. They … my parents were New Zealanders and they came across after the war so I was born in Perth as you mention and I lived here until … in Perth and then Queensland till I was sort of in my teenage years and then my father died when I was 11 and my mother took us back to New Zealand and she was an incredible person. She … now I was one of four boys and imagine raising four boys, you know, late … well it would have been early 60s and so she bundled us all up, took up back … took us to New Zealand where I went to school but she was a really big influence in my life. She was an avid reader, very active in life, loved people, both affable but, you know, discerning person and I think she had a really big influence on my life. I mean my father did as well but it’s just … you know, I was 11 or 12 when that happened. So, yeah, a real big and she constantly questioned and had a great desire for truth and integrity.

Jenelle: Fantastic. Now speaking of your background, I noticed that you hold a Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology and English and I’m really fascinated by that. You’re actually the second guest that I’ve had that studied anthropology and then went on to become a major player in the tech world which I really am quite interested in. So from your perspective, how do you draw the link between your background in, you know, immersing yourself in the scientific study of humanity and then going to play such a huge role in technology.

David: [laugh] that’s a very good question as well. I’m not quite sure. Actually, well I’ve got a confession to make. I was a science maths major through school. So actually …

Jenelle: Oh okay.

David: … in fact I went to University to be a doctor cos I’d done chemistry, physics, maths, applied maths through school and I was … I went off to do medicine but remember it was the early 70s Jenelle and this great opportunity to explore the world, so I felt really challenged to think, well you know, I sort of ignored that part of my life. So I went off and did psychology, English, social anthropology and then archaeology as well and then I majored in, of all things, medieval English and social anthropology. So it was quite a big turn. However I look back on that time and I think around the US, I mean I’m very grateful I had this broad arts, you know, undergrad degree because it did exercise me in ways that I had never been challenged or had to think or use that side of my brain or whatever side of the brain it is. So yeah, but I really was always a science maths major and probably my, you know, if I have natural talent, it probably leant more to that side.

Jenelle: Well its interesting that you say that because I, you know, when I spoke to the other guest who had that background, what he was saying was that he felt it forced him, at an early stage, to think about sort of more macro questions, what's happening in the world and maybe had a breakdown and problem solve in that sort of macro sense. Would you say that same, I mean that’s an interesting – mediaeval English, archaeology, psychology.

David: Absolutely. It made me think about the world, the world around me, about history, context, different cultures. It was. It was very expansive and I … I mean I struggled with it to be quite honest in effect, because my brain had been very … probably more literal than analytical rather than looking for nuances of messaging and looking for the deeper significance of things. So yeah, I’m really glad I did it and I think probably certainly has worked really well in terms of my, you know, my focus on culture and values and what drives people, what drive societies, what's important. Yeah, so very much and also by the way you mentioned technology before. I mean technology is a tool. Its not an end and technology … we need to retain our humanity in the use of this technology. So when I talk to Genevieve Bell, who’s running the AI centre down at ANU. She’s a social anthropologist worked in intel but she’s looking at the societal impacts of technology and how we adapt and use it for the greater good. So I think that its always … always sort of intrigued me and I’m really glad I did it but yes, yes its given me a bigger view of the world for sure.

Jenelle: That’s fantastic. Now returning to your career which we could get lost in here for a really really long time but if I just sort of focus on the Telstra part of the equation, I don’t think its any exaggeration to say that you truly drove transformational change at Telstra and as you know, this is a podcast about change.

David: Yes!

Jenelle: Now at the time that you went into the organisation, I expect you needed to push through a lot of organisational change fatigue, perhaps a lot of cynicism. You sort to drive client centricity. I’m not even sure if those were words that you might have used at the time but certainly we use them now. You drove innovation. You externally changed the public perception of the organisation. Now I know that there are no such thing as “silver bullets” – try as I might to look for one but when it comes to driving change, but what were some of the big rocks and maybe even some of the little rocks that were shifted in that time that you might now, in hindsight, call out as the moments of truth in driving that change.

David: Yes, well you’re right. I really wish there were silver bullets in these things because I’d change and change management, is really difficult. It has a degree of context as well and its hard work. Its not for the faint hearted and as you said, the time I went into be CEO at Telstra, I mean I’d been there for six/seven years, I’d come from IBM and actually in many ways, the way I saw Telstra and all the people was not the way the world or, you know, our customers or the general world perceived it and I continually was challenged by that and … because what I saw within Telstra was this incredibly dedicated group of capable people really driven to make a difference but the external perception was one of bureaucracy, slowness, monopolistic and not customer centric. It was “hey, here’s a product and be grateful you’ve got it” and that really wasn’t what was in there. So in some way change management and actually driving corporate change is actually about bringing out all the wonderful things that already exist and giving them focus but we needed something to rally this together because we had become desperate and we weren’t united in a common purpose or vision and that’s why the customer became so important. Yes, it is about giving good customer service and about having good products that work are absolutely important but it was also getting the orientation to being external because large complex organisations have this incredible ability to get very caught up in themselves and its more about, you know, who’s talking to who and who’s doing what and so we needed an external truth, so an externality that really drove us and then to be aligned against that. So once we really realised it and by the way, I want to be clear, that was always there. I mean, when you talk to a Telstra technician who’s been out on the road for 12 hours and doing another call on the way back home, he or she does feel customer is real important. So it was about that, but … and that changed management. Its about clear … clear about what you want to be together and getting alignment and it sounds easy but everybody will have an opinion and a view and as you rightly said that there would be a few cynics and a few people who don’t want to come on the journey. We really worked hard at that. Like we spent … it was Tracey Gavigan who was the head of HR … we ran a year’s worth of courses for every manager about what customers centricity looked like. Before we even declared it to the market and before we even talked about it. So it was really important we got alignment internally and then to talk about what it meant and what behaviours was required and also what process change, what reengineering we had to do and then back it up with investment and I can still remember, you know, going to the board because we invested, you know, billions of dollars but we also said that we were going to deliver billions of dollars. So there’s still a financial reality around it and that’s what really allowed us to do it. So its getting all those elements working together and then, I’m afraid you need real tenacity, because you make mistakes, you get it wrong but if you’re driven by something that everyone is held accountable for, it sort of rallies you together in a way that is … that is why, I think, purpose driven companies are so important because it actually gives you something that you can really work with. So you ask what were the moments of truth! Well there were moments of truth because its all words until you actually do it but I can remember quite early on in the period … my first year was pretty tough, you know, we had three profit warnings and, you know, the market wasn’t too impressive, stock went down and I can remember there was a proposal because we were a bit down on revenue, to start to charge for a paper bill. Now we wanted people to go to electronic bills for years but remember, our customer base, we had a large elderly group who still used to pay their bills at the Post Office and take it along and the proposal came up to, you know, to charge for paper bills as a way to incentivise people to go … I remember having a meeting and everybody said “yeah, we’ve got to do this, we’re off, we’re not going to meet our plan numbers and this is a way of getting it” and I can remember saying “well hang on, what are our customers going to say” and there was sort of this moment of sort of … it doesn’t sound much now but was actually that sort of moment where everyone …

Jenelle: Sure, particularly if you’re feeling the pressure of that revenue gap as well and its kind of an easy way to bridge it.

David: Yeah exactly, you know, and we all sort of driven by results etc and anyway, we made the decision not to do it because it would impact the customers and, you know, it was so important. I was really blessed to have a great team and I’m really grateful for people I work with during that period because they were, you know, they really drove it. I mean, I learnt so much from them, I enjoyed their company and we, you know, we made mistakes but we sort of were bound together. So I think its those things that really drove change and it gives an energy and a drive and we tried new things, so the innovation point. You know we pushed the limits of it which was un-Telstra like. You know, sometimes the lawyers were a little bit concerned about where we went but that was okay. They came along with us and were a really great support. So yeah.

Jenelle: You’ve used the word “mistakes” a couple of times and I was going to say, you know, in your long career, driving so much change, whether it was Telstra or elsewhere, I’m sure there have been times when you didn’t get it right. What are … you know, are there times that you can recall when you didn’t get it right. What were those examples and what was that like for you as a leader, as you think about any one or two of those examples that come to mind, what was it like to be fronting that.

David: Yeah, well it’s a good question. I mean, look we all make lots of mistakes. I … and its not a regret thing. Its just you don’t always get it right and I think there’s a need for real objectivity and a willingness to say “hey look, I didn’t have all the facts, I made a wrong judgement” but yeah, I think when I look back mostly, I didn’t listen well, you know, I sort of went in with a preconception about the answer and people told me that I didn’t really listen.

Jenelle: So what's an example of where that was brought to life for you. Like, oh geez, if I’d listened I might have avoid this one [laugh].

David: I think at time I didn’t trust my gut as well. You know, you never have all the facts. I think people who work with me say sometimes I would take a bit long to get to the final decision and I think they’re probably right. I probably should trust my gut and I tended to just wait, maybe sometimes a bit long. Yeah, sometimes you know, sometimes you don’t have all the facts but you’ve sort of got this inkling that its not right and time is of the essence. So you’ve just got to back yourself and go for it. Its okay to be wrong, you know, I mean you try not to be wrong the majority of the time but it’s okay [laugh].

Jenelle: Well its okay … its good to learn from those moments, isn’t it.

David: As long as you do learn and you do need to be reflective on it. Sometimes you can give an issue or a, you know, something a lot of thought and you don’t communicate it clearly enough and …

Jenelle: Its clear in my mind!

David: … yeah, its clear in my mind and you realise you’ve got … you’ve really got to work at that communication and you’ve got to break it down into … into a logical and considered set of messages that people can consider, especially if its not a popular decision but I meant, there’s times I’ve got ahead of the team or … and it has just landed badly and whenever … whenever you communicate and people are unable to really understand it and buy in, inevitably it doesn’t work because you need ownership to go through that and also, create an environment where people can test and come back and say “hey look, that’s really good, but what about this?” If you’re too … I won’t use the word “dictorial” but if you’re too emphatic …

Jenelle: Yes!

David: … it doesn’t leave room for people to contribute to the ultimate solution and …

Jenelle: Creating space for them.

David: … creating space for people, yeah, and I think that’s a really really important trait of good leadership and if you get it wrong, you can really … well you go around the tree a few times rather than you’re getting to where you need to be. But its not easy, you know, I mean, as we all know, it’s a bit lonely sometimes when you’re trying to work through these things but I don’t think I ever felt … like there’s times when, you know you’ve got to really back yourself and …

Jenelle: But what do you do, I mean, its not the first time I’ve heard the word “lonely” being used by very senior people. What do you … like how do you … who do you surround yourself with, how do you find like minded souls to be able to go “oh my god, oh my god … or whatever”.

David: I just sort of let it all out [laugh]. Well its always lovely to have, you know, a good home environment that sort of … sort of keeps you very sane and things but in a business sense, I think its really important that there’s a degree of vulnerability and this essence of vulnerability is our humanness, is a critical element of that and I … over time I think when I first became a CEO, I mean, you go in with a lot of expectations and what you want to do cos you’ve sort of, you know, you sort of put yourself out there but the truth is you don’t need to know everything. You don’t need to be perfect but what you need to do is create this environment which is leadership where you get the best out of a great group of people and grow together and I know it sounds all a bit sort of, you know, that’s not good but, I mean its actually really hard but its really important, you know, and you’ve got to back yourself to, you know, you’ve got to say “hey look, this is what I think” and really go for. So … but I do think that that vulnerability and teams are of leaders or any sort of team, it takes work, you know, it takes work and you’ve really got to invest in each other and in the moment. Much of that answers your question but I enjoyed answering it [laugh].

Jenelle: [laugh] I enjoyed listening to it. Now you have a really diverse career spanning over 40 years.

David: Wow, is it that long! That’s a worry!

Jenelle: [laugh] its been a while. Is there an overarching purpose or a mission that’s has guided you to decide, you know, to choose what do you take on versus the opportunities that you let go. How does that work?

David: Well I can’t say that I’ve had always sort of those shining north star about where I want to be because to me, the journey has been as important in what I do. So really when I … I’ve got to believe in what I do. If I don’t believe in it, I really, you know … I mean I believe in technology for example. I really think technology makes a difference and so that’s been easy. I really see the foundational importance of good science and research in our society. So I need to have a bigger intent and then I’ve always felt that … I’ve always done whatever I did to the best of my ability and tried to enjoy the moment and at the same time, is never leaving anything the way I found it. I’ve always wanted to mould it, do something with it and so I think that’s been my driving but yeah, the how, the values and, you know, having a positive impact on the people and things around me but it hasn’t been “I’ve been here to change the world”. I mean that’s not … but …

Jenelle: An accidental by product then [laugh].

David: Well yeah, maybe. I mean sometimes I … maybe but it is, you know, someone once said to me early in my career “you know, stop thinking about what you are going to do next and just do what you’re doing really well now and the doors will open” and I think the other part of this is that as doors open, I think I step into them. So I mean there’s lots of points in my career, I mean I lived in Japan for six years, I you know, lived in the US for a while, did a lot of work in Europe and they were really challenging decisions for me and the family but we always felt, well let's step forward. If you don’t try, you’ll never know and so I think there’s this other aspect around career choices is that “do what you’re doing really well, doors are open and then walk through them”, you know, given them a go, what can go wrong. You can always come back, you know, and … within reason. So …

Jenelle: Why aren’t you scared of failure like some of us are? Where does that come from? That you know, hey you can make a mistake …

David: Give it a go! Oh look, I hate losing for the wrong reasons. I mean like there’s times when I’ve lost and I felt “well hey, you know, good luck to that other supplier or whoever” … cos obviously they were better. I don’t know. I don’t know what that would be Jenelle. I think there’s always a new day ahead, you know, there’s always something new and it doesn’t … I think the other critical thing in life is that my work doesn’t define me. Who I am as a person defines me. Now I now that what I do at work is defined by who I am but who I am, you know, when I don’t have a tie on or you know, I’m in my shorts and tee shirt, you know, wandering down the road, you know, I don’t need to be defined by everything around. I’m defined by who I am, good or bad, and I think that is a really important thing cos I’ve seen people who get caught up in all the, you know, paraphernalia and, you know, that’s not what’s life is about I don’t think.

Jenelle: I think the two … I mean for someone who’s had such a massive career and work history identity, that you would be forgiven for wrapping that up with your identity, you know, what you do rather than who you are. So I think that’s a really wonderful thing to be able to understand your contribution but to decouple your identity as being solely reliant on it.

David: Yeah. Yeah, well thank you for saying that. I mean, I really do strongly believe that because, you know, all that other stuff is fleeting, you know, and I think therefore keeping that perspective on yourself is really important and the other part of it is every day is a new day and you have a choice of whether you live with what happened yesterday or what you do today and I choose to live to what is going to happen today, not what happened yesterday, its those sorts of things that do drive you.

Jenelle: They are fantastic takeaways. Now you have, as I’ve said, you’ve had a pretty massive career in the corporate world, then you started taking roles on government policy and the public service. What was transition like? What was it like to see and address issues from those vantage points and were there any learnings for you that came out of that, perhaps you went in with certain expectations about the kind of people, the kinds of worlds. How did that multi-lens experience change?

David: Well I’m incredibly grateful for the opportunity I’ve had to work with the public service and on public policy. It wasn’t totally foreign to me because many of the … you know, the companies that I worked with like Telstra were very heavily regulated so I’d had very … you know, quite a lot of engagement with the political process and public policy but it was different going to work alongside and with, you know, the wonderful public service and we’re very … you know we’re very privileged and blessed to have such a strong public service, I mean all based on … of not perfect and look, I, like many people used to go to see Departments of government and I’d feel like they were, you know, slow moving, bureaucratic, risk averse, you know all the normal things that we say and yet, being … working with them and seeing the complexity of the issues they deal with and the nuancing of being able to build public policy in a political process and the role that produces, I mean I take my hat off. My respect for the public service went up enormously. So … and we need some of our best and brightest working public service because it is so important for our society. Now I’m not saying that we need to over index on, you know, I’m still a great advocate for, you know, industry, private sector, you know, I’m a sort of the social capitalist probably but you know, we need great people because these are complex issues you’re dealing with and they are … they take time to think through and they take time to implement whereas I had always been, you know, what's the problem, what are the options we’ve got, let's make a decision and move forward and I still think that’s important but in a public policy sense, you can easy make really big mistakes and you need to be very considered. So I thoroughly enjoyed my time in the public … working in the public service and on public policy and always working within the academic community because CSRO and we work with a lot of Universities, I just absolutely admire our academic community and of course, I’ve come out of industry and then I read the OECD reports that say “one of the challenges in Australia is that we’re not collaborative”. Now what they mean by “no collaborative” is we don’t get a lot of people moving from public sector to industry, industry to academia, academia into public service. So if you actually … I think they call them the triathlete now. So I do think, we as a country, we need more people who work across all three because you do see the world slightly differently and by having people who have worked across all three, I think we would get to better outcomes and a better appreciation. Many of the social issues and political, environmental issues, you know, are very challenging and we need our best and brightest there. So yeah, I’ve been really … really enjoyed my time working with those people and I hope to be able to do more of it in the future.

Jenelle: So just changing tack a little bit but staying on the theme of looking at something from another lens. You were appointed the Deputy Chair of the Federation Government’s national covid19 coordination commission, so the NSC advisory board, you know it was in 2020, it was all about supporting the government in navigating the challenges posed by the pandemic. Emotions would have been running high, economic challenges raised aplenty, health challenges raised aplenty. Massive expectations across a very broad stakeholder landscape. What was that like? How did you prioritise? I mean the word there was to coordinate but how did you do that? Where did you know how to do it at the start? Just too many people to please, too many things to do with that, how did it work?

David: I’m not sure we did very well on the coordination but anyway. Well look, firstly I do want to say I really applaud, you know, the Prime Minister and Prime Minister and Cabinet for … for actually reaching out to industry and saying “look, this is a crisis, we don’t really know all the answers, come in, help in any way you can” because really it was that simple and you know, we had a national crisis. Very early on, we really didn’t understand covid and how broad the impact would be and I think, you know, a real sense of togetherness about “hey we need everybody at the table”. Look, the way we approached it, we immediately knew there was sort of three stages here. One was this whole question about how we could respond. We were in crisis and the first six months, you know, trucks couldn’t get across borders, we couldn’t get food into some of the aboriginal communities, you know, ports were closing down and really it was more like firefighting. So you know, Paul Little, who knew the ports people and the trucking, he would just get on the phone and say “look, what’s your problem, what can we do to help?”. You know, we could talk to Allan Joyce, because we were at an industry, we just knew people. Whereas for the public service to do that, its just not their thing. Whereas for us, we could do that or you know, the Universities, you know, what was going to happen there or you know, what was going on in education. We could just connect things up. So the first three/six months was really firefighting, that’s what we did. But then very quickly, it went from crisis to how do we recover. So you know, decisions around vaccines, how to roll it out, you know, logistics etc. So how do we get people back to work and over that period, very slowly, we became one voice of many because really the system of the public service needs to kick in. So the first six months it was just all hands to the wheel, what do we need to do. Second six months it was more around working with and we were a voice of, you know, so they might have let's say Jobkeeper – we would ask our opinion on it but we didn’t make a decision. We said you know, how would this play out in small meeting business. So we were just one voice because it has to go through, you know, a whole process of Cabinet etc and then the last section was this whole sense of reform and, you know, could we use the crisis of covid into reforming parts of the industry and while we didn’t see the outcome of that but some of the advanced manufacturing work, some of the, you know, commercialisation of research initiatives, some of that sort of started there. I was only on it for a year and I think our effectiveness near the end wasn’t as impactful because really, you know, it meant really to appreciating the different roles of public service and politicians and cabinet versus industry and we couldn’t be privy to some things but we could put input. But you know, hey all credit to them, you know, whether we were good or not doesn’t really matter but the very fact that they were willing to say how can we work together, I thought was really great. Should do more of it really.

Jenelle: Any interestingly, I mean even just listening to you talk about those phases, part of the skill of this is identifying the different stages so a leadership role in crisis, a voice amongst many in recovery and an advocate for reform and you need to shift – right, so depending on whatever inputs. So that in itself is a skill to understand the order of the day to lead or respond to that order. Its an important takeaway. David, I think it would be really great to explore the topic of trust with you. I see you as a highly trusted individual across private sector and government landscapes and in fact in 2017, you were made an officer in the general division of the Order of Australia and that was ethical business leadership. So that has inherent in there, a thematic of trust. This is also now in a time where our society, I think, is becoming increasing distrustful. Its hard to escape the 24 hour news cycle, clickbait, constant social media churns, rapidly shifting consumer expectation, the rise of public sentiment which can … we’ve seen play out into a pile on culture or cancel cultures. How do you personally think about trust and particularly the intersection of technology and trust.

David: Yeah yeah, it’s a big topic this one now Jenelle.

Jenelle: [laugh]. It is, I know.

David: These big tech platforms sort of given a voice which has been so positive to individuals but also the misuse of information and, you know, even this term “fake news”. You know, fake news is a lie, you know, sometimes we, you know, we conjure things up and sort of make it sort of a new term and yet, you know, truth and trust go so closely together and a whole society is based on trust. You know, even now, I mean here I am doing a podcast with you and I trust what you’re going to do with it, you know, and if we ever get … allow this trust to be broken down, I think we’re in really serious place and I … I will go out a bit on a limb … I really … I’m really worried about this thing around trust to truth and then people say like “I know they don’t mean it this way” but they say “well my truth is this and your truth might be something different”. I mean truth by definition stands independent of who we are or my perspective. Truth is truth. Call it something else. Fine to call it a perspective. I use lots of different words but don’t use truth because truth is reality and if we don’t base ourselves on reality, we see what happens if people misrepresent lie/cheat and that just underpins everything. So in trust between people in an organisation or in society is the bedrock and one of the things, even … especially with Telstra, one of our values was trust each other to deliver. Trust each other to deliver because we’d always, you know, we’d always be “I’m okay, its that group over there, they never deliver”. It was always the blame culture rather than a default of going to trust and then holding people accountable as well and what I worry about is people are no longer accountable for what they say or do and I think that is really really important.

Jenelle: There so many hidden … I mean they’re shadowy. They’re anonymous. They …

David: Anonymous yeah and they hide, you know, and they’re not willing to be recognised for who they are and they hide behind all these things. So I think this is really really important and yeah, I know, I always get this quite wrong but is it Mark Twain who said that you know, “a lie will travel around the world twice while truth is still putting their boots on”. Is that … I’m not sure if its Mark Twain …

Jenelle: I’m not sure if its Mark Twain. I’m not sure of the quote but I like it!

David: You know, we don’t know who said it but they reality is that sometimes falsehoods or … we see it on social media, people are far more inclined to believe the … probably the unbelievable cos its sort of a bit different rather than seeking the truth because the truth is hard to get to and cos you do need to be discerning. You need to think through what's really happening and its like in business, you know, we all want to be seen in a positive light but actually I tell you as a board member or member of a team, what I look for is people who tell me the way it is and then we can get in and try to fix it but if people keep misrepresenting or putting a rosy picture on it, or misrepresenting, you can’t deal with it. So I think its really important and look, that’s what drives me and that’s why I like science and you know, science is about the discovery of the world around us. It’s about better understanding, about seeking reality, learning new things. That’s, you know, when I see the astronomers saying “David did you know that we just discovered three million new galaxies in the last three months” and you realise that a galaxy is a billion stars, I mean my mind just goes to … but the joy of that, seeking that truth of what really goes on, that’s what we should be engaged in because that improves society and a long and winding road to get to there but that’s [laugh] …

Jenelle: I know that’s a really important discussion. Now on the continued vein of important discussions, I don’t know whether I’d put this question in the D&I bucket or the personal change bucket. I suspect it could be both but in 2016, you were on a stage at a big event and you had quite a profound “ah-ha” moment on the D&I front. I wondered if you might be able to tell me about that experience.

David: Okay. Well actually I think I told the story in 2016. It goes back to 2018 on my birthday cos you can see how imprinted it is in my memory, in my psyche. I know an author called Jane Elliott who was a psychologist who wrote a book called, I think it was “Brown eyes …

Jenelle: Oh I think its a blue eyes/brown eyes experience …

David: … blue eyes/brown eyes and she came … IBM had bought her out to Australia and there was an auditorium of about three thousand people and she said “David, would you come up on stage, I just want to do a bit of an introduction”. I said oh that’s fine and I got up on stage and she was in the middle and there was a Torres Strait Island woman there as well. She said “oh David, how tall are you” and I said “I think I’m six foot one”. She said how does that make you feel? I said that’s the way I was born, you know, I don’t really think about it. She turned to the Torres Strait Islander and said “how tall are you?” “I’m five foot one”. How do you feel about that. Well actually, you know, it’s really hard, I go into a room and I can’t see everybody, sometimes I can’t look people in the eye and you know, so I find I’ve got to make compensations for that. That’s really great and then she went through about five different things about me being European, and then she said “you’re a man, David, how do you …”. I said “well you know, that’s the way I was born, you know, I do the best I can sort of thing” and then she turns to the Torres Strait Islander and says you know, “you’re a woman, how do you feel” and she said “well actually in my society its really … has constricted me. My recognition … “ and she went on and anyway I felt smaller and smaller and smaller on this stage and … because she was just … in my whole world view was determined by what I saw, not what someone else saw and I realised that my lack of awareness of other people’s views, that were very real and that I was totally insensitive and I mean it was an unconscious bias but it just made me realise in a very deep way, I can’t, you know, to be aware of someone else’s experience can ben completely different to mine and to be open and not assume too much …

Jenelle: And things that you take as a give-in are actually massive pain points for others, so …

David: Exactly exactly and in that, which is this whole question around listening more, not being … not sort of jumping in and of course it does relate to diversity and inclusion but it was far deeper than that and an appreciation of another person and an awareness of them and an ability to connect in a way and so it changed the way I turned up, not every day and in my leadership and also you take to another level of wanting to really appreciate differences. I mean the richness of having different views from around the table, different ways of looking at something, allows you to get to a far better outcome and so listening, appreciation, diversity, inclusion, I mean they all work together …

Jenelle: They do!

David: … and they can create something really quite unique that often in our very narrow view or my very narrow view of the world, you know, I become a better and wiser person by engaging in inclusive … so yeah that was an experience and then of course, the other part of the story is I did something … in my embarrassment on the stage, I touched Jane earlier and it was sort of one of those moments where … and she said “what gives you the right to touch me” and I …

Jenelle: Oh god! [laugh].

David: … [laugh] at that point I thought I should leave the stage, you know.

Jenelle: Did you just wait for a hole to swallow you up on that stage [laugh].

David: [laugh] that’s right, that’s right.

Jenelle: No, it’s a really powerful example and I’m sure there are a lot of people in the audience who would have had the same ah ha moment for themselves as they listened to you and watched that. So all of those examples that you’ve just talked about, I mean, what you said about diversity and it makes you a better leader and its better organisation, I mean, not to be dismissive of that but that is … it feels like a no brainer – right. Of course that would be case and I know that you were a founding member of the Male Champions of Change Initiative and there have been some excellent advancements. Certainly the kinds of conversations we’re having as business has evolved but I think its fair to say that we still don’t see the numbers of women in leadership at the kind of levels that we would expect or need to see or at the pace we want to be driving.

David: No.

Jenelle: Given all of that, why is that. What do you see as the biggest barriers to just fixing this?

David: Yeah yeah, I wish I had the answer. I mean one of the great things that has changed, no longer called Males Champions, its just called Champions of Change. I mean I had to stand by Liz Broderick who did it initially, was because, you know, it was about the men who were leaders stepping up to the challenge and I think that’s right. Look, the one thing that gives me hope and I mean one of the great opportunities that I’ve had is to work in Scandinavia a bit and I … and they’ve been on this journey a lot longer than we have and there’s something about the Scandinavian, you know, society but you know, there’s real … real equality there. I mean, the number of female/male, you know, whatever … it is far more balanced and it just … its just what life is, just like, you know, in my social life, I really, you know, I have friends, I don’t necessarily think about gender, I mean just recognise people for who they are, while appreciating there are differences you know, in a way, but not in terms of capability and look, I saw the journey they went through. They did have quotas by the way. They worked very hard on them and they went really hard at it cos I think there is sort of this, you need to get over the tipping point. We’re getting close, you know, we’re getting in the mid 30s but still got a long way to go. So look, I don’t have any magic answers except to just keep going, keep pushing and creating opportunities and we need over index on it and at times it feels a bit unnatural but sometimes that’s what is required, you’ve got to be a little bit irrational to get to rationality and so that’s my thinking. You know, we have so many wonderful people, we just need to give them opportunities, male/female and capability is not defined by gender. Again, I wish I had an answer but …

Jenelle: So turning to innovation. I have heard you described as the Godfather of Innovation in Australia. Don’t know if that makes you [laugh] … you’re shaking your head but you are … you are. You certainly have done an amazing job of fostering that at Telstra we’ve seen as an example. I know you have an aspiration to make Australia one of the top innovation centres in Asia and eventually the world. What do you think it would take for us to unleash that and realise our potential.

David: Well I definitely don’t think I’m the Godfather of innovation. I deeply deeply believe that innovation is so critical to any society, any business because it defines the human essence. I mean our creativity, our ability to innovate and change and redefine is what creates value. Value in relationships. Value for the environment. Value economically. You know, value across all the value chain and the one thing about innovation is that it can work at a personal level, it can work in an organisational level or it can work at a national level and a lot of people think that innovation is invention. Innovation is this constant pursuit of improvement, of doing things better and smarter, of redefining product, redefining process, doing things differently, you know, design thinking is so important. So that’s why I am such an advocate for it and its not just for the scientists and the physicians and the chemists. Its for all of us and in innovation, you create value and it keeps you challenged and going … moving forward. Also, I think it is … it is an element of cultural in innovation because its what you celebrate and, you know, we talked about failure before, but you want people to give it a go, to try new things, to push the boundaries and I think it has this really positive impact on society. Now I’ve heard innovation be related to venture capital and digital, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about you can innovate in your gardening, you can innovate in how you build, you can innovate in design. Its everything and its actually creating a culture and an environment that celebrates that and gives it a go and then supports it. Now, I do spend a lot of time, you know, in all those aspects but there is the innovation ecosystem that you define at a national level and there’s a wonderful concept called the Triple Helix that I think its mainly Switzerland, some of the Scandinavian countries, I think Belgium but its this concept of how … what we were talking about before of how we get public policy, education academia, schools, tertiary, TAFFs and industry, all intertwined, looking to create value in new and different ways and celebrating and I think that’s what the incredible opportunity is as we go forward. So that’s why I get excited and enthusiastic about it but it’s very much grounded in reality and its to do with our education system. Look at our health system in Australia. We have one of the some of the best clinicians, some of the best researchers and biotech, they’re incredibly innovative, you know, we’ve got people who are extracting new resins that are … you know, that are fixing cancer tumours. I mean that’s amazing so we need more of this. Now … and … but its at every level, in our building, in our land usage, in our you know, ability to grow great wine. That’s why I think its so important and it gets down into supply chains, manufacturing, searches yeah. So that’s why I’m a great advocate.

Jenelle: Last question for you before I go to the fast three.

David: Okay.

Jenelle: You are now applying your skills to saving the Great Barrier Reef. As if you haven’t got enough things to be doing. You’ve recently taken on the role as Chair of the Great Barrier Reef Foundation. What are your views on the role of technology to advance the sustainability agenda.

David: Oh look, technology is going to be a critical critical part of any solution. I mean the reason I’m working on the reef, is that its just so tragic to see the impact of climate change on such a wonderful wonderful environmental, you know, wonder and you know, what is it, 25% of all marine life begins from reefs and we lose the reef, you know, the impact is actually far more than just tourism. You know, a lot of the work we’re doing on the reef from addressing water quality, you know, trying to eradicate crown of thorns, of creating more heat tolerant coral because we’re not going to push back water temperatures is all very strong technology driven. You know, from use of submersibles, you know, autonomous vehicles and getting to crown of thorns through to detection of outbreaks, through to the work we’re doing on, you know, genetically and through just cross pollination of being able to develop corals that are more heat tolerant, it all gets very deep. We couldn’t do it without technology and we do a lot of the work just by virtualisation of the DNA strand and looking at what can happen. So so important but yeah, for anything, whether we’re talking around renewables, through to decarbonisation, sequestration. All of that is going to require a new generation of technology and I think that we’ve got a really important role to play there. I do believe that we’ve got to manage the transition carefully, you know, being innovative and use of technology and using our wonderful scientists, you know, just great opportunity, so yeah.

Jenelle: I can see all the combination of your skills and experience coming together, so I have … I’m gratified that you’re working on that, it’s fantastic.

David: Thank you. It’s a tough one. There’s a lot of players on the reef but anyway, we’re working on it.

The last three … three fast questions on change to finish the podcast

Jenelle: How about we wrap it up with the fast three questions. Don’t overthink this one.

David: Okay.

Jenelle: What are you reading, watching or listening to right now?

David: Okay, I’m reading a book called “Winning on purpose” by Fred Reichheld which is a really good book around how to really take a purpose driven organisation and then when I was down at ANU recently, they were celebrating their 50 years of competition, they gave me a book called “Deep time” which is a really interesting book around the concept of time and how the world has developed, I mean, I remember seeing an astronomer came and pointed to a little dot on the screen and said “this is the most incredible thing, that’s a galaxy being formed” and I said “oh that’s great, you know, that’s really good”. He said “oh you don’t get it, that’s galaxy that is being formed is ten billion light years, what you’re seeing is something that happened before earth existed”. At that point, I give up, you know.

Jenelle: Oh my god. My mind cannot wrap itself around that at all. What’s your super power. It can be something that’s relative to the world or a useless party trick.

David: I’m still looking for one [laugh]. I don’t know.

Jenelle: You’re so busy adding to the world you’ve got no useless party tricks.

David: Yeah I don’t think I’ve got any good party tricks. No, no, I’m afraid I’m a blank on that which probably says something about me, you know, anyway.

Jenelle: It says precisely nothing about you, that’s fine, you’re not superficial like I am [laugh], I’ve got lots of party tricks. If you were going to put a quote up on a billboard, what would it be?

David: Look, there’s lots of quotes in my life that I could relate to but just at the moment, you know, I would say “listen more than you could talk”. I think if we all listen to each other a bit more, we’d all be in a better place. So that’s it for today.

Jenelle: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Now David, I can’t let you go without thanking you for your time today. I was very excited when you agreed to do this chat and I’ve loved the conversation. A few takeaways for me, well there’s many takeaways but some of the ones that really stand out in my mind, you know, clearly you have a conviction in technology and science and research but at no point have you ever departed from retaining humanity at the centre of that. Your points around not being afraid of vulnerability, not being afraid of mistake making. You know, I love the reminder that if you don’t try, you’d never know and I think that’s sort of really ties in with the innovation agenda as well. Walk through the door there’s always a new day, don’t be afraid of that. I love your advocacy for collaboration to drive better outcomes, for better value creation and your … whether its your educational background of just so diverse or your work background, that multiple-lens experience, industry academia, public service, private sector. I think its when you have, as you said, that kind of appreciation for context, for nuance, for skills. You are going to get that Triple Helix that you’re talking about and I love the conversation around identity and how you are defined by who you are and not what you do and keeping that perspective. It probably liberates you from, you know, some of the things that perhaps holds a lot of us back. I think your reminder to be discerning and to be truth seeking, whilst understanding your nuance and context. Don’t misrepresent or dress things up, face into the truth have been some of the takeaways and you know what, I think back to your very first comments about the influence of you Mum, you described her as affable, discerning and truth seeking and they would be exactly the words that I would use for you. So I don’t know how that makes you feel but its screams out to me that would be exactly how I would describe you, so I’m sure your Mum would be incredibly proud …

David: Oh thank you.

Jenelle: … but its been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today.

David: Oh well, thank you Jenelle, I’ve really enjoyed it too and you did it so well to summarise it. You did it really well, I could have done it in two minutes [laugh].

Jenelle: Thanks David.

David: No no, really good, thank you very much.

The ‘Change Happens Podcast’ from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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