Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Dave Donaghy

Intro: Change happens – how we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how senior business leaders face change. The good, the bad and everything in between because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: This podcast series – Change Happens – is a conversation with senior business leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. When we set out to create a podcast about how we cope, deal and work through change we certainly didn’t expect it to be amid the biggest worldwide change in modern history – COVID 19. But with that context in mind, I asked Dave Donaghy, CEO of National Rugby League Club, Melbourne Storm to join me, to give his unique insights into how the sporting community has been affected by COVID 19, whether that’s the financial stresses, the fan and sponsor pressures or how to ensure the wellbeing of players and in this conversation I explore with Dave how he’s undertaken change in his own career which has moved from journalism, right through to being appointed into the Melbourne Storm CEO role as the youngest ever CEO of a club in the NRL’s history. We talk about what Dave and the club more broadly have done to foster a positive and distinctive team culture at Melbourne Storm and how that’s translated into some serious success for the club, in its relatively short term within the NRL. And after interviewing Dave, I have to say, it’s hard not to be struck by Dave’s humility and surprisingly understated manner. It certainly doesn’t line up to the stereotypes that many of us might hold when it comes to people of Dave’s level, Dave’s industry and his achievements. And in fact if it wasn’t for me calling out those achievements, you may have found yourself at points, scratching your head, wondering if I was speaking with the same person that I’m talking about. But that’s Dave to a tee. He’s a listener and a humble family man. Actually, you will hear the odd kid or two in the background here. He’s a man who lets his ears, his values and his achievements do much of his talking for him. It’s genuine and it’s endearing and I hope that like I did you take away some helpful insights from this discussion. Hi Dave, and welcome to the Change Happens Podcast. 

Dave:  Great to be here with you.

Jenelle: Ok I’m going to start with four words that seem to carry a very different weight at this time and that’s how are you doing? 

Dave: Thanks for asking. I think no different from all of us. It’s – I don’t think any of us have been through a Corona Virus before so I think we’re all certainly adapting. No personally trying to be as agile as I can, whether that’s in life or in work and the work pressures are relatively manageable, the home school pressures, the life pressures are probably the ones that I think all of us are juggling at this stage. 

Jenelle: They certainly are challenging and I know you’ve got everyone at home with you, today. So well let’s just see how we go. But starting with COVID and life on the work front. What’s been the impact that you’ve seen to the sporting community and indeed to Melbourne Storm of the restrictions that have come about from COVID 19.

Dave: I think the initial jolt to start with Jenelle, was the first shock certainly that the landscape in the short to medium term won’t look anything like what it has previously and whether it’s the financial impact, whether it’s the emotional or psychological impact, you know, be significant for our industries. I think Rugby League particularly is probably as well placed as any to do its best to get through there but evolve and adapt for the wider sporting industry, I think there’s going to be a significant impact. You know there may be sports that don’t come through the other side. If they do it’s going to look significantly different and I think you know very much you know as sports clubs, the whole industry, are going to learn to live within their means and not chase others down a rabbit hole or pursue an arm’s race. I think that’s certainly something that would be readjusted through this period.

Jenelle: For sure. Now Dave I’ve got to believe that during this time managing and maintaining player motivation and engagement must be calling upon some pretty unique and creative approaches. How have you gone about doing that at the club over the last couple of months. 

Dave: At Storm we’re fortunate to have some exceptional leaders. You know the head coach Craig Bellamy has been in the job for 18 years. Frank Ponissi is our General Manager of Football. They’re supported by you know really high quality – not just people in their roles but people in general. They’re great people with great values and morals. You know the guys re great people with great values and morals. You know the guys are set some tasks. The football program really thought that through, strategised and you know executed it really well. Our players were given individual programs. There was a real focus on connections. You know the guys are effectively on top of each other for you know 10 months of the year and you know during this period there’s a real absence of that physical or you know connection whether it’s in the locker room, in the gym or on the field. So really there was a focus on that, you know, and also a focus on players’ partners and families and supported by a psychologist and welfare experts or wellbeing experts. We focus on the holistic part for our players, not just the physical part of it while they’re away but also encouraging them to go on a bit of a journey of self exploration, learn some resilience skills. Learn how to cope by themselves and not have the full resources of football program around them all the time and you know that also extended to staff.

So you know the coaches are involved in professional development. You know they created the Wisdom Wednesday. So they brought in expert coaches from all around the world who spoke to them and told them their story and you know certainly encouraged them or they encouraged each other to learn all the way through. So you know I think for six months whilst we weren’t together, they certainly didn’t waste that time.

Jenelle: Wisdom Wednesday. Love that. Now you talked about connection Dave, and it’s not just connections with the players and staff. The club obviously has an extensive fan base and I know for me living with my sport obsessed husband and son, sports is a massive source of emotional connection. So how have you kept that fan base motivated and connected to the team during this time? 

Dave: We spoke about that right at the outset that whilst we’re never going to be more disconnected from our fan base, there’s never been a greater time to actually connect or be closely connected, as close as possible, to our fan base, our audience. You know we’ve got 25,000 members. Our social audiences are the largest of any professional sports team in Victoria. So more than any of the AFL clubs and for us we felt there was an opportunity there to use our players, our club, digital staff members, to really, whether it’s by video or our social content, to provide insights and get our fan base knowing our people a bit more and also you know continuing that connectivity between the club and our members and our fans. And you know certainly the numbers have been quite extraordinary. On our first training week back once training was allowed, you know it was – the media coverage and the social media commentary around that was 10 times preliminary final week. It’s certainly – I think that’s a reflection of the appetite of people wanting to connect and consume. But also the fact that our Rugby League and the NRL you know certainly at that point is the only you know sport that’s back training in Australia, and potentially the world. Very few sports leagues around the world that are back up and running. And you know as ambitious as the marker was of May 28, you know the numbers are demonstrating there’s a real thirst from an audience to get back to some level of normality and that includes Rugby League.

Jenelle: You know in talking about some level of normality, it’s redefined the scope of what normal is. League missing out on home games revenue, this would cause enormous financial hardship for the Storm and for all clubs. Add to that a loss of sponsorship dollars, the pressure of delivering return commitments to sponsors. Is this a time for real innovation? Is it an opportunity to pivot and change your approach there?

Dave: Yeah. Innovation’s a really good word, Jenelle. I know our coach, he bangs on about it quite a bit around you know innovation being the buzz word and what that actually means. And there’s absolutely a place for it. I think innovation within your means is really important. But innovation not for innovation’s sake. I think at this point, certainly for us, it’s been a priority to focus on getting back to the bare bones. Getting back to basics. You know what’s the absolute requirement – the key requirements we need to ensure that we’ve got the product – or the program back on track – and we can put a really competitive team out there for May 28. And also that you know we keep our fans and members engaged on the way through. You know we’re one of the most covered supporter base in the country. We want them to have absolute confidence that the club’s doing everything it can to firstly look after the health and safety of our players and staff, but also you know the wider – play our role with the wider community. So that’s been really important. 

Jenelle: In the meantime there’s been lots of media challenges off the field. The CEO resigning from the NRL, broadcasters’ rights in doubt, had some controversies Dave with players not adhering to social distancing. So with all of that and in that landscape of you know trust and the ask of fans, how do you keep the club, so staff and players focused on the bigger picture when there’s just that much uncertainty surrounding them and their careers? 

Dave: Certainly the challenge was really around that 6 week period. I think our league, you know it’s certainly with the ARLC Chairman, Peter V’landys, you know was the – there was risk reward around May 28 as a date. There was plenty of commentary around it being ambitious. Peter’s very data driven and you know it was certainly running on trends around the virus trends at that point when he pushed the game to put a marker in the ground. I think that provided players and staff particularly with a level of confidence and certainty. Prior to that point there wasn’t and when you don’t have a date to work towards you know that becomes very challenging. I remember right at the outset, we informed our staff that you know we were going to close the office from the health and safety perspective. You know we had plenty you know staff that were taking public transport at that point. Didn’t feel comfortable with that at that stage and particularly given that the infection rates – but we put a date on it. Just to provide people with some certainty and some understanding that – yes we’ll continue to review it, but there is a date here. That hopefully will give people a marker if you like to condition themselves to get used to effectively a new normal. For our players and staff it was really important, that May 28 date. I think you know, I know there’s been plenty of commentary down in Melbourne from some of our AFL counterparts around having that – I suppose the envy around having a date set. You know we weren’t immune to it.

You know we had an incident of a player transgressing the social distancing rules, but you know that was done whilst the player was away from the club. At the end of the day we’ve got a – you know most of our staff members if we think of it are aged between 20 and 30. They’re still evolving as people, as young men. You know we’ve got a netball team so they’re still evolving as young women and you know people are still learning and that doesn’t excuse behaviours, but certainly for many people who have kids and can see you know when you’re dealing with young people, you know you give them a kick up the bum but you also give them a cuddle on the way through and you know tell them that they’ll be judged on their behaviours moving forward not the behaviours that they’ve demonstrated. Provided they’re demonstrating that they learned from what’s happened. That’s all we can ask from them. Albeit you know that point that that player was hit with a pretty heavy sanction so it certainly was an interesting period, Jenelle, that you know we had the challenge ourselves with maintaining connection and ensuring that players were adhering to rules and understanding the rules. And rugby league with controversy is like a moth to a flame. You know we – there were two instances in that 6 week period where there was players transgressing the social distancing rules. You know, believe it or not, there were 6 or 7 from another pretty major sporting organisation which I won’t go into. You know you wouldn’t know that. Because it doesn’t attract the same type of controversy. Whether that’s purely on the basis that our game’s based out of Sydney and it’s a different psyche to a game that may be based out of Melbourne, I’m not sure. But you know when you’ve got two instances and then you’ve got a whole range of instances at another sport, you’re only thinking that you know rugby league players are the only ones that transgresses. For me it’s a real interesting insight into our sport. 

Jenelle: Certainly something that attracts a lot of attention. You know disproportionate or otherwise, it’s out there, it’s certainly in the public eye. I think that speaks to the level of emotional connection that people feel.

Dave: It doesn’t make it right you know. But for me it’s just a real interesting reflection of our game and probably an extra layer of complexity that you know when you’re in roles like mine, around how you have to or what you have to focus on or manage.

Jenelle: Dave, you mentioned the netball team, Sunshine Coast Lightning, which Melbourne Storm has a majority ownership of. Tell me a bit about that. It’s clearly such an important relationship there, brings diversity to the club. How are you finding that diversity playing out in a time like COVID 19? Is that diversity bringing different ideas on how to navigate through? Is one club influencing the other?

Dave: Yes certainly. Look I think there’s a whole range of lessons that both can learn from each other at different points. Lightning’s been great for us and you know certainly great for the Sunshine Coast region. For Storm it certainly entrenched - we’ve got a long standing relationship with Queensland. We’ve had quite a few great Queensland players. You know we’ve got a huge supporter base up there and you know for us it’s certainly entrenched us in that region. They are a remarkable organisation. I’m in awe of the work they do. Danielle Smith our CEO up there, she does a great job. We learn as much from them as what hopefully they do from us. I think just the fact that we’ve got a larger revenue base you know we can probably share a few learnings from our greater resources through so they don’t have to – you know they can - hopefully don’t have to replicate the same work and that hopefully in the long term will be a benefit for them. But that experience for us, the diversity

Jenelle: What would you say Dave are the defining characteristics of a courageous leader during these kinds of disruptive times? 

Dave: Great question. Certainly from what I see at the moment is you know really bringing people on the journey. You know it depends on your style I guess. If you’re a real – you know if you’ve got a dictatorial leadership style you know that’s probably

Jenelle: What’s your style? How would you describe your style?

Dave: Evolving. You know I suppose for me I’m you know, I’m still 37, I’m still learning. I don’t profess to knowing everything. I feel like I’m doing an NBA on the run. Yeah, I’ve had great mentors on the way through. I’ve known you know people that are still involved with a football club whether they’re board members or shareholders. You know guys like Gerry Ryan have been a friend and mentor of mine for a long time. You know Bart Campbell has been our Chairman for a long time. We were transitioning into a new Chairman, Matthew Tripp. These guys are exceptional leaders. For me I’m still evolving. I try to you know provide direction. Sometimes I certainly pull myself up for getting too far into the day to day. But to understand people and understand challenges that we might face and then you know strategise and work your way through.

Jenelle: Well your humility on that front is certainly very clear. But the reality is Dave, you’ve imbibed a culture at Storm that is absolutely envied across NRL and other sporting codes. It’s led to widely __ on field success. You’re not afraid to break the mould, you’re not afraid to try new initiatives and I know some of those initiatives have included – and you’ve talked about it – appointing that full time wellbeing staff member to work with players. Clearly got a zero tolerance towards racism. You’ve placed – and you’ve just talked about it earlier as well – placing emphasis on players maintaining their training, education, to prepare them for life after sport. I know you’ve ramped it up even more during this Corona Virus period, but that’s certainly been a – one of the things that you’ve had in the club anyway. Tell me about the philosophy you have there? Why are you pushing so hard on those kinds of initiatives? 

Dave: Well look just from a Storm and our culture – I was fortunate enough to inherit a pretty good operation. So you know I came back to NRL and Melbourne Storm seven years in a strategy role. You know 18 months later I was appointed CEO. So coming up 5 years now actually. So it’s – time flies when you’re having fun.

Jenelle: Never a dull moment that’s for sure.

Dave: I suppose if you break it down you think what is a footy club? Ultimately you’re greatest asset are your people. And you need to overinvest in your people. You need to get good people around you. You need to challenge yourself that you know – I’ve never played NRL. You know I played rugby league as a kid but you know certainly never played NRL. So, yeah, you want to get the best people around you. You want to surround yourself with great leaders. As I said you know I’ve got – I feel like – I’m genuine in this – I feel like I’ve got the best coach, the best captain, the best team at footy, the best CFO, the best Chief Commercial and you know the best marketers, the best doctors. The list goes on to drive the club to a new level. And I think for – in my role it doesn’t matter who you are and no one’s bigger than a football club, and you’re only a custodian in a point of time. Then you’ve got a period of time where, hopefully, you can make a real difference for us to our football club and to others to their businesses and you know certainly, you know at the end of that you can reflect back and say – I did a pretty good job there. So I feel like the journey’s still – still a bit left in me here. And I know that last cycle of the CEO’s not particularly long. I just feel like at Melbourne Storm there’s just so much upside. You’re a one team town. Yes there’s a lot of competition in sport. You know it’s a city of four and a half, five million people. They’re sports made and you know there’s a huge membership base in the AFL. We’ve seen our membership grow from 15 to 25,000 over you know this sort of 3 or 4 year period and I just feel like there’s a hell of a lot more that we can achieve. Whether that’s to continue that on field success or to grow our balance sheet off the field.

Jenelle: Dave, I’ve heard that all new players who join the club ask to bring their steel capped boots in and they’re sent to spend two weeks labouring on building sites. Now I know that tradition preceded you joining the club but it’s something that you’ve kept in place, what’s all that about?

Dave: Yeah it’s been in place since Craig came down from the Broncos where he was assistant coach in about 2003. So you know effectively the players when they arrive at Storm and again doesn’t matter if they’re an 18 year old kid straight out of school or if they’re a 25 year old Queensland and Australian representative, you know they’ve got to bring their boots and they go out to a work site for two weeks and you know there’s a few reasons for it. One is it gives them a level of understanding of the work ethic of Craig and our football program which is – it’s exceptional. I think it’s something that I’m consistently in awe of. It also hopefully sends a message that they should be pretty grateful for the role that they’re in or the opportunity that’s afforded right now in terms of being a professional footballer and how quickly that can be taken away from them. And that’s not meant to be disparaging to people who you know do wear steel cap boots to work. Far from it. It’s – the third thing there is actually you know all of our players come from interstate or overseas – the overwhelming majority of them. And you know by getting on the tools and getting out into some worksites. You know we know that some of our players have actually developed you know life long friendships with the people they’ve been on with worksites. You know meet some Melbournians and integrate into the community. It’s a bit of a tradition that continues to exist. You know wellbeing staff, where we over invest. You know they drive that program, Frank Ponissi our GM, he’s fundamentally important to that. You know those traditions I think that – they’re pretty special for this place and you know certainly everyone you know buys into being a part it – a bit of a rite of passage.

Jenelle: I love that early instilling of a sense of appreciation, gratitude, that community connectedness, it’s fantastic. So you know at the risk of embarrassing you, you are said to have a Midas touch with Storm. You have steadied the ship during that salary cap scandal in 2010. You increased club’s membership. You talked about you know 15,000 to 25,000, growing average match crowds to 18,000. When you think about what we’ve just talked about there or that investment in wellbeing, talking about investment in learning, talking about the steel cap boot tradition you’ve got there and these kinds of club membership focus etc, how do all of those off field measures lead to on field success?

Dave: It’s a great question. I think sometimes in sport you can be too singularly focused. Make no mistake we want to win the premiership each and every year. That’s something that motivates us. But you know it’s really tough to do. You know it’s – there’s 16 teams that have the same objective and you know they talk about it being a game of inches, it absolutely is. You know you need everything going your way to get the result. You know I suppose in my time in this role, you know we’ve been to three grand finals, we’ve one won. You know you’d have loved to have one them all but it’s really hard to do. You know and the guys do their best to do so but you know it is a challenge. So for us you know there’s more than just winning premierships. It’s about connecting with our community. It’s about playing a role with growing grass roots rugby league in Victoria, an emerging State. It’s about you know building infrastructure and facility and how we can I suppose overlap – we’re in a great community within that. We’ve got our you know the NRL Victoria staff are based out of our office. So we’ve got 10 or 11 Melbourne officers that go out and spread the news of rugby league. In schools, in clubs, a whole range of community programs. You know we’ve got partnerships with Dardi Munwurro, with the State Government that sit on the crime prevention taskforce.

Jenelle: Why do you sit on the crime prevention taskforce out of interest?

Dave: I was approached by the Premier down here to you know join that group – the Crime Prevention Minister, Ben Carroll down here – he’s become a good friend and I suppose for us down here – the big Pacifica and New Zealand population and you know for many sports that part of the community isn’t interested in many other sports. So for us to - you know – if we’ve got great athletes and role models, we’ve got six different countries represented which marks our playing group. We’ve got players from Papua New Guinea, Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, New Zealand. We can connect with kids who may be at risk and hopefully provide them with a – I suppose a bit of a shining light around an alternative path that can be followed for kids that are at risk.

Jenelle: I want to take a little bit of a trip down memory lane for you really. You were a small town Gladstone boy, turned journalist, who then moves into sports administration. Then goes on to become the youngest ever CEO of an NRL club at Melbourne Storm. There’s got to be a lot of stories of change there. Clearly this is a podcast called Change Happens, what are the moments that stand out for your from a change perspective and why are they the ones that are most prominent in your mind?

Dave: I’ll just start from being a kid from Gladstone. So one of the things you struggle from when you’re a kid from the country is talking about yourself. So you know – and stepping outside of your comfort zone, Jenelle. So this is probably one of those things which you know you don’t feel particularly comfortable about. I always remember looking back and seeing kids that we would play footy against and they were living in Brisbane or on the Gold Coast and you know you think you’ve got movie parks and the beaches and everything. Gladstone where I grew up was such a great place for sport. It had so many sporting facilities that were afforded to us as young people. It was a great opportunity in life. You know I probably had, right from the start, you know I made a decision to leave Gladstone and you know ended up in Brisbane going to University and trying to play a bit of footy. Probably could have stayed and taken a trade apprenticeship, as a lot of my mates did. Went out and ventured out and I moved to Brisbane and lived by myself when I was 17, which was an experience in itself. Don’t ask me about the first time I tried to cook a steak. No, the fire alarm got a workout. There’s been a few things along the way – whether it’s leaving Brisbane to start with and going to North Queensland for a small period, to getting out of journalism in total. I started out with Australian Associated Press as a general news reporter – ended up in sport. The first time I actually went to Melbourne was when I moved there for work. I’d never even – hadn’t even visited there and all of a sudden I was moving there for work. So I was – certainly haven’t been afraid to take a few risks. Been all part of the adventure. You know it’s a big old wide world out there and if you shield yourself away from it, you know often, you’re probably robbing yourself of some opportunities.

Jenelle: So yours is a clear story of adapting with the various environments that you’ve been in, the various roles that you’ve been in. Can you tell me about the skills that you’ve been able to transfer? So what are the kind of common skills that you’ve taken with you across those various landscapes and what are the ones that you’ve had to change or adapt to suit new roles?

Dave: I think if I was criticised earlier as a CEO as I didn’t talk enough – I probably didn’t fit the mould. You know I used my ears and I listened a bit more. I like to think I try to do that. You know people might not think now that I do that as much but that’s definitely – it may just take me a little bit longer to process what they’re saying. And that’s okay. That’s just I think continuing to evolve. Along the way you’re going to learn different things from different people and you’ll take – I think you’ll pick up traits that can help you improve. Cause you want to constantly improve. Like footy – if you’re standing still and you’re not evolving, adapting with the environment, I think certainly this period of time is going to you know show people up around that or hopefully lead them to a point where they have to do that. They have to evolve. I’ve tried to regardless of what role that I’ve had – I’ve tried to be myself. I might not be polished, might not be private school educated, but you know I certainly try to be authentic, to be genuine and to, you know, to be open and hopefully warm to people and I think if you’re doing that, it’s a pretty good start to hopefully to hold you in good stead and build some strong relationships which you know we all need as we go through life.

Jenelle: And would you say that they are the biggest lessons that you’ve learned along this way that you know staying true to yourself, being authentic, but continuing to adapt is the key? Was that how you would summarise your lessons or are there others you’ve picked up?

Dave: That’s a pretty good summary. Look, there’s got to be a level of joy with what you’re doing. You know if you’re not enjoying it, you know it makes it pretty tough. Ultimately, people talk work life balance and at the end of the day it’s life balance. You know work’s such a big part of all of our lives now and how you’re juggling that. This certainly brings it home. This period of time when you’re spending probably a little bit more time at home. You know that life balance is really important. 

Jenelle: You’ve said one of my favourite, favourite words, joy. I don’t hear that word enough and it is one of those words that just makes me smile when I say it so I think it’s such an important thing.

The last three – three fast questions on change to finish the podcast.

Jenelle: We’ve had all the heavy questions. I’m going to finish up with a light, fast, three questions. A bit more of a light hearted nature. Tell me, what’s a misconception that most people have about you?

Dave: Gees you’re going to have other people this Jenelle. I mentioned before around the hearing, or listening, as opposed to speaking as much. You know I like to – I do like to listen, I do like to learn. Probably in my youth.

Jenelle: People think you’re younger than what you are?

Dave: People think the opposite. They think I’m a hell of a lot older.

Jenelle: What’s one guilty pleasure? And I’m going to ask you to keep it PG rated for me please.

Dave: Guilty pleasure – hot chips.

Jenelle: Oh mine too, with gravy?

Dave: Well actually that’s probably you know talk about before people’s – you know what they think of me and what’s the reality is that I think people think I – I try to keep fit so people - I think they think I’m a fitness freak and like to eat healthy. I would have the worst diet going. I love a hot chip. You know I’m certainly not eating salmon and salad every night. You know I think I had a big homemade meat lovers pizza last night. So yeah – I have the opposite effect – if I don’t have enough carbs I lose a whole heap of weight. So maybe it’s just the luck of the draw.

Jenelle: What’s the one thing that you’re hopeless at?

Dave: I’m hopeless at time.

Jenelle: Managing time?

Dave: Yeah. Yeah, I think I was two minutes late for this podcast. I blame technology. And that was partly that. And awareness of time or whether it’s an awareness of the time expectations you’re putting on others. So setting people a task and saying I want this done in three hours and it’s going to take them three months. I’m evolving.

Jenelle: So it would seem. So Dave, listen thank you so much for your time today. Some really great takeaways. What I’ve heard loud and clear is the power of connection and how much you’ve been driving the redefining of what that looks like in a COVID world. You know whether it’s taking out the physicality of connections and redefining it for player to player, or from club to family or fans to players. You’ve talked about your greatest assets being your people and the importance of surrounding yourself with the best people and investing in them and taking them on the journey. And you’ve also talked about having a holistic view of what success means. You know it’s more than winning on a field. As you say there’s winning off the field and certainly the latter is a critical ingredient for the former. So with that I want to thank you Dave for being so candid. Thank you for your humility and clear representation of how you’ve continued to evolve over your career. Wish you all the best personally and of course all the very best for the season.

Dave: Thanks Jenelle, thanks so much for having me on.

The Change Happens podcast, from EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts. 

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