Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Christine Nixon AO QPM

Intro: Change happens. How we respond to change can make or break us and our careers. Join us for an intimate insight into how influential and authentic people lead through change – the good, the bad and everything in between, because whether we like it or not, change happens.

Jenelle: Hi. My name is Jenelle McMaster and welcome to the Change Happens podcast. Conversations with influential leaders on leading through change and the lessons learned along the way. Today I’m joined by the first woman to be appointed as Chief Commissioner in any Australian state police force, former Victorian Police Commissioner, Christine Nixon. During her tenure with the police force, Christine focused on increasing female representation in police services, and she ushered in a revolution in structure of policing as an occupation for women. As a result, Christine has been recognised for an outstanding contribution to policing in Australia, and was awarded an Order of Australia earlier this year. She’s a champion of social justice and is vocal about the rights of women and minority groups. Christine actively rights on policing issues and has been a lead investigator on several Australian research council grants. She has sat on boards, she has a charity, she’s co-authored two books, she’s a lecturer and a change agent. As you might expect though, given the field that Christine lead in, and the time in which she lead, it hasn’t all been smooth sailing and Christine has had to face many a challenge often very publicly. So clearly there’s a lot here to explore and I’m keen to get into it so let’s just jump right on in.

Hi Christine, thanks for joining me today.

Christine: Nice to talk with you, thanks.

Jenelle: I want to start, if I can, with just helping the audience understand, I know it’s some time back, but your early days as a child and adolescent, and what influenced you to join the police?

Christine: So, long time back, grew up in the ‘60s in the Northern Beaches of Sydney, a great part of the World I have to say. I suppose when I got to the point of thinking about what I wanted to do when I grew up, so to speak, at the end of high school, I didn’t really like the choices. In those days for women going to University for me was not an option, for a range of reasons including cost but I didn’t want to be a secretary, nor a teacher so, my father was a police officer so I though why not. And I said to him one day I’m going to join the police and he said well you can’t. And I went, ok. Being 18/19, father says you can’t do anything, then you probably kind of go ‘why not?’ So that was really the start of it. I’m not I was absolutely driven to think about joining but it became, as I talked to different people, it seemed to me to be something that I really wanted to do.

So that was in October ’72, I actually entered a class in the NSW Police Academy. One of two women out of about 80 in the class and joining what was then 130 women out of 8,000 men in the NSW Police.

Jenelle: Wow that’s pretty staggering stats. I do love the idea of your Dad saying well you can’t as being some kind of motivation for you and I suspect that those words echoing over the course of your life stayed true as a motivator no doubt. As you say, one of only two women in that batch of 80 that you joined in NSW, what were some moments that stand out in your mind in those early policing days?
 
Christine: I think it was interesting time because it was the ‘70s and so it didn’t really dawn on me to start with about what was possible. For me it was good pay actually for women, good conditions and I really hadn’t explored what was the opportunities. But I suppose one of the significance pieces for me was, so I went along to get along. Which is I think what a lot of people do to start with, you keep your head down, I was pretty fit so none of the training was a problem but of course the choices of where you went after you finished training were, for women, very limited.

So I suppose I went and did school lecturing, which was kind of interesting and then we worked sometimes undercover because I was young and 20, long blonde hair and we used to occasionally work undercover without any training of course to do any of that but there you go.

So the turning point for me though, a friend of mine became pregnant and I said to her, “So we don’t have Maternity Leave, what are you going to do?” And she said “Oh well I don’t think we’ll ever get it, so I’m just going to go.” And I said no actually we should really think about this and advocate. In the end what happened is she did decide to go. But for me it started to really form a view about what needed to change around women. I became the kind of head of the Women in Police branch of the Police Association and I was 21. I had to then figure out, you know you get a role like that you then have to figure out what are you going to do and what needs to be done to change for, not just issues around Maternity Leave but lots of other things.

Jenelle: Let’s stay on that. President of the Women’s Branch of that Police Association as you said, how did you figure out what you had to do and how you were going to get on and doing it?

Christine: Interesting is because I was a bit shocked that I even got elected. I mean not only the fact that she kind of talked me into it and said well, you know you’ve got nothing to lose and I think that was the case. She said you’re the lowest of the low, actually her words.

Jenelle: Oh wow, motivating words.

Christine: Which basically was they couldn’t do anything to me.

Jenelle: Right.

Christine: That’s a very powerful way to think, I believe. So what happened was I went and asked the women. A model that I have followed much of my life. I went and asked the people involved. The younger ones, the older ones. Some of the older ones weren’t so keen about looking to change, but certainly the others were. And all they were really looking for an opportunity to talk about what needed to be done and so that was a whole range of things. Obviously Maternity Leave but it was more about lifting up [6:14] that only had certain numbers of women, where you could go, that we should be getting equal training. And so it really started, I think a role. And the other thing of course was outside in the bigger world. The world in the ‘70s was changing for women. And so we kind of partnered with people in Government, outside as well as the Police Association eventually helped us but management started to see within the NSW Police that it was time for change. It’s an interesting model, asking people what do they want and then you start to really get focused on what needs to be done.

Jenelle: Were there any moments maybe in that time when you were with the Police Association that were like “oh I did make change happen”. That served as something of the fire in the belly that you could do that. Is there anything in particular?

Christine: Oh yes, absolutely. The point when we got quotas lifted, when we did actually get Maternity Leave. They’re all the kind of things and of course we got women to be able to work in Operational Policing and actually I was one of them. Hadn’t quite necessarily planned that it would be me but, you know, you have to jump in yourself and put your money where your mouth is somewhat. And so I think, that was that time so I did see that change. It doesn’t all work perfectly but, and as my career progressed over time, I started to see that you could bring about change. And I think you do have to take the successes as you get them and they often spur you on to try for more change.

Jenelle: Speaking of successes then, you were appointed as the Assistant Commissioner the NSW Police Force and then you rose to the ranks, of course, to the Chief Commissioner of Victoria Police, I’m sure you’ve been defying the odds for that gig in all manner of guises. Whether it’s being a women or whether it’s being from out of state, how did that come about? They are big moves Christine, how did it happen?

Christine: In many cases I often say to people there’s all that experience and ups and downs that occur before you get a sort of prominent role like that. But certainly for me I progressed in the Police and studied and gone overseas, worked a bit with the London Metropolitan Police and then eventually came back. Had a few ups and downs with the Government Administers but eventually I learned about how to manage people and then took on a prominent role in reform in Human Resources in NSW and then had a run-in with the Commissioner at the time and so it went. Eventually I get a call in January 2001 from my father, then one who’d said there was no future really and I shouldn’t join, he quite dramatically changed I think by that stage and he said there’s a job for you and I hadn’t even thought about it. I was happily the Regional Commander in the South Coast of NSW, we had a farm in Cobargo on the South Coast and an apartment in Wollongong and it was just a really lovely life with about 1,00 police that I worked with. He said to me “Look I think this is your job, the Government’s changed, they’re looking for someone different, it could be you”. And I went “Oh I don’t think so”. So anyway, he eventually, along with my husband, encouraged me to apply and that’s what I did. I dragged out an old application that I had, back sometime before when I though about applying for the NSW Police and I put the application in and got invited to be a part of the process.

When I think about it now, and really, Victoria had nothing to lose, in some ways, with me. If it worked out, that would be great as they saw it and if it didn’t it’s just like, ‘oh well we gave it a try’, and tried and true method.

Jenelle: At that time, the institution really was in the spotlight for a whole range, like a series of scandals. Police shootings, extreme cases of sex discriminations, raids. Surely that would have given you pause for consideration about whether or not to take on a role like that?

Christine: I wish I could tell you that it did! It was more, really I went into it thinking it was never going to happen.

Jenelle: Oh, ok.

Christine: I obviously though did what I would always encourage people to do. I did the work. In terms of understanding the organisation I went back, searching through, I got people to send me library materials and some of those enquiries that had occurred. I didn’t really know many people in Victoria. I tracked one women down who has Victorian and she was in Cambodia at the time, and managed to have a chat with her and she was there with a Magistrate and so, I kind of followed that up but I was paying attention to what it was like. Perhaps more I got down the track of the application process and so I think it didn’t really daunt me.

I know policing really well and grew up in it really. Both in a family and then otherwise. So I knew that wasn’t ever going to be a problem. And I had so many different sorts of challenges in NSW, I went gosh, you know, I can do this. And of course only when you are then appointed you think “oh my gosh what have I got myself into?” When it’s announced and you then know this is reality. And you are going to take this role on. It dawned on me once it was announced really.

Jenelle: It’s interesting, you almost gloss over and maybe it’s my read on it but you’ve said words like ‘I’ve had a few ups and downs with Governments and Ministers, I had a run-in with the Commissioner’, like these are just bullet points in the day but they’re big things Christine. What was it about you know, navigating those ups and downs and having a run-in with the Commissioner, what did you take from those things and build into the way that you then operated moving forward?

Christine: This sort of view I said earlier which was really ‘so what have I got to lose’ was part of it. And the other thing I think you have to have is the confidence in your own capacities and abilities. So the two things I think probably, I’m not over confident in that sense but you’ve kind of been through ups and downs and you’ve had different things and you’ve seen a way to go forward. The worst case for me for all of this for different times I had run-ins was so worst case I’m just going to get another job. As I got more senior I could also tell them they needed to pay me out of the contract that they wanted to terminate. So I think that senses of it, and that sense has actually often allowed me to kind of do things and be able to progress. I think you also have to know it’s never a straight line. There’s always diversions. You might take a step back, bit like chess maybe, you’ve got to look how the game’s played and then you might have to take a step back. So when I was in Wollongong in that role in the South Coast, that was really being put off to the side and I had friend who said “You’re cooling your jets for a while down there”. And that’s what I was doing. So I think you realise, it doesn’t mean that I wasn’t upset about changes that happened but I’ve often been able to find the ‘ok, so now what am I going to do with this, how am I going to handle it?’ And I think that’s been a lesson that I’ve learned over time. Maybe your ego’s damaged, your whatever it might be, you’ve got to go ‘ok, how am I going to figure this out, where do I go next?’

Jenelle: That’s amazing. When you took on the Police Commissioner role, did you, was there any sort of change that you at the outset set out to achieve whilst you were in that role?

Christine: It’s kind of interesting, I remember pretty much the first contact and it was just a really minor one but it has significant implications. So what happened was I was going to be sworn in, and this is before I arrived. I got a call from the Deputy Commissioner and he said to me “Christine the Government wants to have a big occasion for you to be sworn in as Police Commissioner”. And I said “Oh really, ok”. And he said “You don’t seem very happy about that”. “No I’m not”. And he said “Well we have a way of swearing people in and it doesn’t involve the Government having this occasion.” And I said “Oh right”. I said “So what are you telling me?” He said “Well I don’t think you should do it”. I said “Well thanks for your advice”. But you might tell them yes, I’m very happy to do that. And I even thought about it, I mean it was just a straight up reaction like that because I thought it was important.

What I was looking for was I wasn’t going to be owned either by the Victorian Police or the Victorian Government. And it seemed to me what I needed to do was directly have access to the community. For them to hear what I thought was important in policing and so we did in fact have this event. But it allowed me to write a speech about what I thought was important to talk about who I was. To make the point “yeah I’m a woman and I’m not going to change. This is who I am”. And that was the point. And also to say, “I can’t do this job on my own”. I’m going to need all the people in Victoria Police, all of the community and the Government to support us, we want to focus on these things that are important.

But that of course laid a foundation that, and I said I am going to go to the members and the community and ask them what they want from us. And so that really started for me a process of wanting to go out. Or signal should I say. That I was going to go out and I was going to ask as many people as I could in Victoria Police what they thought but also then connect with many of the community groups within Victoria to understand what they were looking for from the Police.

Jenelle: And in creating that direct channel to the community, and making yourself accessible in that way, was there anything that you heard from the community that maybe surprised you or you factored into the way forward that you might not have otherwise had you stuck to the way it had previously been done?

Christine: Look I think lots of things actually. If you also think about the time, recently we had the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Well that was within the first few months of me being in the role in Victoria Police. So there was circumstances happening outside, there were community groups that approached me, lots of different groups of people. Gay and lesbian community, various ethnic backgrounds, Aboriginal communities. Some of it I was aware of but some I didn’t really know what that relationship had been with the Police. And if you talk as that as the outside, then inside of course was a lot of people who were very unhappy about the way Victoria Police had operated, its layers and layers of management, its not listening to the people who are doing the job about how things could be done more efficiently. So I suppose what I was trying to do was listen to the Government about what they wanted, listen to the community about putting that as part of a plan for the future and then listening to the members about what was it we needed to get on with and fix quickly. And that really became the agenda for me over the then, well it was a 5 year plan we had but obviously over the shorter term as well.

Jenelle: Well that’s fantastic and actually you talk about the diversity side of the equation and in 2002 you defied critics not only by allowing Police Officers to march in uniform but also becoming the first Chief Commissioner to join the Gay and Lesbian Pride March in Melbourne, pretty historic moment, what impact did that have for you and for the community, positive and negative? What was the feedback and reaction?

Christine: Really interesting. You sometimes do things when you don’t really think through the implications of it. But it did quickly, I agreed after having had a meeting with the gay and lesbian Police and professional support staff that they should march and in uniform and they just asked me would I lead the march. And I of course relatively quickly said yes. And partly that’s coming out of NSW so NSW Police had been involved in the Gay Pride March for years and I’d been a great supporter of them and very much encouraging that to occur and so in some ways I was coming of that base. So I didn’t think a lot about it until it became a prominent kind of issue. And then I had to really think about why and I’m being advised by my media people that it’s wrong by the Government who’s said we want to tell you shouldn’t be doing it. I mean they didn’t ever tell me I couldn’t do something but they really wanted to encourage me and then of course, you know, family in some cases. And then I got 800 emails from an email system we had just introduced in Victoria Police at my kind of pushing and their requesting. And then it was in the media and, you know, ‘don’t bring your Sydney ways to Melbourne’. It became, I went oh I’m not in Sydney any more. So the plusses were way outweighed the negatives. And yes there were people who were not happy with me in Victoria Police. But I figured a long time ago that leadership is not about popularity. I wasn’t looking to be the most popular person in Victoria Police. Because I figured that was never going to be a way to do things.

Sometimes have to make the decision that not everyone is going to agree with you. But what I think many people did agree with that I said that I’m standing up for people who are doing a good job and they need me to do that for them. To stand up for them. And that was both the police officers and professional staff but it was also the broader gay and lesbian community. And the relationship between the police and the gay and lesbian community has been atrocious. And I knew a lot of that history from the ‘70s and ‘80s. And so it seemed to me this was an opportunity now. Not only the march was just really a small symbol, the more important piece was to put liaison officers in place to figure out how we could do better. To attract people to join the Police who were gay and lesbian, transexual, bisexual backgrounds, you know, all of that so they would seeing policing as something they felt comfortable to be part of.

I suppose the one comment which really struck it for me, was I was at an old people’s home for an afternoon tea and a lady came up, she was Jewish, and she said you know “I want to say something about that march”. And I thought “woops I’m in trouble now”. And she said “No you’re not”. She said “You marched and I knew that I could continue to live in this place”. She said “I’m a holocaust survivor and I knew you would stand up for us”.

Jenelle: Oh wow.

Christine: You can’t ever really underestimate sometimes. And you know people got past that. In some ways it carried on a bit more with people who then suggested well the reason I was supporting those communities was because I clearly was a lesbian and I’m not sure what they think my husband was doing but in some cases they said it was a front. And it’s a shame when people sort of go to that sort of level to then say, I said it doesn’t matter what I am.

Jenelle: Even if you were.

Christine: It doesn’t matter. So that was a significant event. But one of I think many smaller and bigger wins that really were trying to change the culture in Victoria Police.

Jenelle: What surprised you when you took on the Police Commissioner role? On the upside and the downside – what surprised you?

Christine: So what surprised me was how willing people were to tell me what’s wrong with the organisation. That was great because and they didn’t seem to see me as someone who would harm them for it or there would be retribution or anything which I think is great.

So they probably saw me as an outsider. I didn’t have any vested interests so they could tell me what those issues were bigger and smaller ones. The other part which didn’t really surprise me but it was a like some of the silliness that goes on in organisations and just silly things that stop good people trying to do a decent job and I’ve more and more watched some of the systems we force people to live within and you just have to say “Did we really do that?” That was often my line. My other line was “Can we just do this?”. Were the two things and I’ve kind of continued that sort of behaviour.

I suppose those two things were not just resonance in Victoria Police they’re kind of parts of many organisations to wonder about how we manage to create such amazing barriers to people trying to do a decent job.
 
Jenelle: Absolutely. I’m reflecting on your comment when you were in the earlier stages of your policing career and your friend made the comment about ‘you’re the lowest of lows - you’ve got nothing to lose’. Arguably now you’re the ‘highest of high’ and you still manage to use that as a reason to do things so I think you can make a narrative to really support you for driving change regardless of where you sit, but what did you come to learn about power? Maybe how to get it? How do you use it? What did you learn?

Christine: It’s really a very interesting issue and it’s often been – even the idea of power is often been seen as ‘we really can’t talk about that’ cause it’s kind of bad. It will be misused. So there is that sort of a way but I’ve seen it, especially if you think about people wanting to be appointed to different roles or applying for more senior jobs on the basis but you’re being ambitious. I then thought to myself – what I was trying to do and I remember a friend said this once “I’m ambitious for change”. “I’m ambitious for the capacity to bring about change in an organisation or a team or maybe bigger in a community.”

I think to do that though you have to access power. That power comes with a role sometimes. It can come with that positional power at your gill. So it can come simply force of an idea. People will try and take that power away in both settings really. I think you have to think about then how do you get your power back and what’s it like to own your own power. Which is the piece I think is a great space that allows you to be generous. It allows you to support people. It allows you to say ‘No we can’t do that or ‘No we’re not doing that’. I think there is those things that I have been more recently thinking about that is important for people to recognise we do have power and often people try and take it off you actually and disempower you. That’s a sad place.

Jenelle: Well I might use that as a Segway to turning to the Black Saturday bushfires – occurred in 2009. Sadly 173 lives were lost. But it was also a time when you personally faced criticism for what was described at that time as ‘hands off leadership’. You also had to front a Royal Commission. Can you tell me about that time?

Christine: I can and I’m happy to talk about it. I have talked about and thought about it quite a lot as you could imagine.

Jenelle: Yeah.

Christine: One of the things that I’ve been able to do with distance is really think about the time that it occurred. I gave notice to leave Victoria Police in November 2008. I’d been there through incredibly difficult, challenging but also terrific times. But you also know that when you put a lot of effort into developing other people you need to get out of the way and let them continue on. So it seemed to me it was the proper time.

The mistake I think I made at that stage, I gave notice to leave Victoria Police. Told the Government and they were all there and then was going to finish a month later which would have finished me at Christmas time and the Government said “Could you please stay till we appoint a successor” or get close to doing that. I said “Yes”. In a sense is what I call it is there an idea that you leave before you leave. So I’d already started in a sense to turn my head to thinking about the future. What happened of course is then the fires occurred in February so at that stage even that January I was working but I was really travelling the state. Part of the Police tradition is to say goodbye to people and to finish up – just get a sense of where things were up to.

Cause that’s pretty much where it was. I had been the day before the fires I’d been in Mildura talking to them about the arrangements. I knew there was lots of work going on – emergency services and the Deputy Commissioner and a range of other people.

So we get to that day of course and there are a lots of things happening and I was there when I realised it was becoming serious. It’s different in some ways to be somewhat isolated control centre and not really been aware of what’s actually going on around you. So in some ways I guess I misjudged what the responsibility people saw I should have taken. I think there is a series of those things kind of closer to it. Then of course the whole thing after the fires happened – which was very rapid. There were 1,000 fires that day in Victoria and they were being dealt with at various levels by local committees, local communities, local offices as well as regional commanders – they were all handling. It’s a local decentralised model in the make but I was obviously in the centre and for a period of time left the Operations Centre and went home and worse according to many people I went to a pub.

We had also sold our apartment and were leaving the following week and so all of that came together I guess to underpin the problem.

Finally of course I get asked to lead the Bush Fire Reconstruction and Recovery Authority by the Prime Minister and the Premier which again I think is probably the first time a woman has ever done that. So I’m still trying to finish up with Victoria Police so then for the next 14 months I lead the Authority in terms of trying to recover and work with those communities. Then of course we get advised the Royal Commission wants to meet me and talk. That was a surprise because they said absolutely nothing to me before that.

So I guess the question you’re really getting at is What’s the impact? Well, certainly that publicly when I was called before the Commission it was a shock. I was given a short time to prepare a statement because where is this going? Then it started to dawn on me where it was going – pretty much only when I was in the witness box did I start to realise that this was about me. That this was going to be an attack on me as to why I hadn’t been where I should have been. Why I had or hadn’t done other things that day and all of a sudden (probably too late) that’s what happened.

Jenelle: How were you through that period of time?

Christine: Well I do know that you just have to front up so I did. Came out after the Royal Commission – went out the front door, people said “Oh look you can go out the back”, I said “you can’t go out the back, I’m going out the front”.

Christine: So there was lots of media and people calling for me to be stood down as the Head of the Recovery Agency and it really was a whirlwind in some ways, but I did eventually try and take control back and suggest that I was not going to stand down. I had a job to do and would continue doing it. Eventually the Commission released a report some months later suggesting that I should have done better pretty much but you know it was quite damaging to me and what I saw as my leadership. But once you’re in that maelstrom which others have probably been in as well, it’s really hard to find your way out of it and eventually I did some months later I guess.

Jenelle: What was it? Was it just time that helped you find your way out of that? Or was it turning your attention to more recovery efforts? Was it another role? What was it that helped you?

Christine: I think the recovery helped because I knew what I was doing. I mean there was some people in the recovery communities that some of the people in the communities who said “Oh no you should stand down”. But what really got me a bit more focused on what I described is “You have to get over yourself sometimes” is a family who [31.45] took a big public function down in Federation Square and said to media and everybody else “We all make mistakes and maybe Christine has made a mistakes, and she said “perhaps my husband and I have made mistakes” but in this case we just have to get on with it. We want her to stay we want her to help.” The woman making that statement had lost two kids in the fires. I figured to myself she has lost her kids, she has lost other family and friends and what I’ve lost is a reputation so I need to get over it and I need to able to be here supporting those people in the recovery of their communities – 109 committees across Victoria and lead the Authority to a point where my job was done and then someone else could take it over for the next phase. So that helped. I think writing about it afterwards helped. Mind you it might have started the controversy again in some ways but at least I got to put out my view of what had happened and the various players that had caused this to be brought to the fore.

Jenelle: You know it’s very powerful. Time is a powerful healer but also shifting perspective and being clear on purpose all of which you had around you is really powerful. Those Black Saturday bushfires were well over a decade ago and yet there is high resonance of that with so much of what we have seen and are experiencing today around the public expectation of leadership during a crisis. The role of media and shaping a narrative. I’m sure there is all sorts of things that are ringing “I’ve seen this sort of thing before”. What are some of the lessons that you carry with you from that time about leading through crisis and uncertainty that you think are important for us to remember given the times that we find ourselves in now?

Christine: Look I think there is a couple of lessons. One is that crisis doesn’t speak for itself. Part of that is what I learnt is someone needs to be quickly interpreting, understanding and being the face of that crisis is one piece of it. Sometimes people find themselves in that role that they hadn’t quite imagined before but having watched Premiers and others now who stepped up and into those roles – I think that’s an important piece of dealing with a crisis is communications.

Christine: I think the second one is about power of communities to be involved. I think the pandemic has not called on the way communities should have been involved. Local mayors, local politicians, community leaders. I think we made some mistakes by not bringing in – we’ve kind of gone at the national level and I understand that and mistakes but I think we should have really been building the level within communities, particularly those who are disadvantaged or communications issues. So I think communities are important and we should be hearing them and helping them far more I found in recovery and responding to disasters.

One of the things we did with our bushfires. We established 33 community recovery committees. So I think that’s another piece of it. Another lesson I’d say is someone is going to get blamed and that’s just standard. You’re hearing it now really about Premiers – Gladys was on point that the NSW Premier was the saviour of Australia and people not so sure anymore. Same with Daniel Andrews and so it goes.

I think you need to know whatever level you’re at that people will look for a scapegoat sometimes. They’ll look for someone to blame for what did or didn’t work. Very few people get away who have led any of these sorts of circumstances with their reputations intact or their jobs in some cases. I often say use all the resources and all the people you can to find help. People often limit who can be involved but I’ve had quite a lot of experience in emergency management and just asking people – in our case banks, IT companies, consulting companies, you name it, everybody came in and helped just because we asked them. I think also encouraging people to ask. Then keep score. What was achieved so that there is the capacity for people to go “Yep things are improving and changing”.
 
Jenelle: Yeah that’s an important one because we can lose sight of that when it just feels so relentless and I do think it’s important to stop and recognise what advances are being made. I want to pick up on that point that you were talking about that it’s really hard to come out of these things unscathed. I looked at your website Christine and you had the very accurate words on there which said “Christine has experienced the best and worst of human behaviour. She’s been highly praised and highly criticised but never ignored”. I looked at those words and I was like “What is that like?” What’s it like to be seen as the best. Be seen as the worst. Going from being praised to being vilified and how do you look after yourself through all of that?

Christine: I probably should have added that actually into the comments you just asked me about when there has been a crisis or a disaster cause I think that’s the really important piece that often gets neglected – the bit about your own self and trying to find ways to make sure you do look after yourself. I think what happens though is you just end up running on adrenaline and of course many people who have been involved in a major crisis – there is a model that shows that you’re up and surviving and your part of the group that is surviving and all of a sudden there starts to be a dramatic decline and there is blaming and anger and for some people can be daily really when they might come out of it. I think you do have to look after yourself in it. You’ve got to have a bit of perspective. People around you who are also supporting and keeping your feet on the ground. That’s an important piece of the learnings I had.

I remember going to one group to talk and actually I couldn’t talk. My voice had gone all together and that’s pretty much because I hadn’t had a day off in for five months so my system in the end just shut down. That actually happens to a lots of people. I remember watching when Daniel Andrews fell and there is a sense that said he now needed to take his time and recover. I’m glad he took that time that was needed to recover.

Christine: I think you do have to look after yourself. You have to look after those people around you. We have really good peer support officers in Victoria Police and then we have more of them in the Recovery Authority but you’ve also got to take time for some fun and to lighten up occasionally and try and get a bit of perspective on things. That’s been something I talk a lot about. Some people said but I’m not necessarily I’m good at.

Jenelle: Fantastic! Now as I said in the preamble. Christine you were recently awarded the Order of Australia. Congratulations for that. For your service to policing, women in policing, tertiary education. What did that recognition mean to you?

Christine: Well it was a bit of a surprise. People had talked about looking to nominate me years and years ago and I didn’t think any more about it. Well clearly that bit about the much criticised kind of a bit might well have outweighed perhaps the positive things that I’ve tried to do. But it seems like in this case that’s not been the case. So I found it quite fascinating. I haven’t been to the ceremony to get the award or anything yet but it seemed a nice recognition. Perhaps my family and lots of people around me have said “Well it’s about time”. But for me you put it on behind your name and you think “Oh my gosh look at that!”. It seems to make a difference to some people in terms of the way they see it and see it is as a significant recognition within our Australian community and so do I. So I appreciate it but was really quite surprised.

Jenelle: That’s fantastic and I’m glad to see after all that criticism there is some sort of recognition as well for your outstanding work. Now final question before I move to a more light hearted fast 3 questions. What’s one tip or piece of advice that you might have for women aspiring to take up leadership roles?

Christine: That they can do it.

Jenelle: They can do it.

Christine: Don’t let anybody suggest to you otherwise. You don’t just kind of fix and change and pretend you are anybody else. There are very, very, very many capable women in senior roles with enormous capacity to be able to step up and to make the changes we need in our communities. I would just encourage women to do that.

The Last Three – three fast questions on change to finish the podcast.

Jenelle: Final Fast Three for you. What are you reading? Or watching or listening to right now?

Christine: Because we can’t travel anymore and because it was my favourite city I’m reading Jan Morris’s ‘Venice’. I loved my time in Venice a couple of years ago. I’m also reading a thing called ‘The Boys Club’ you won’t be surprised at!

Jenelle: No I’m not surprised.

Christine: Which is about AFL but it’s a very interesting exposé maybe I don’t know what you call it and I’m having a bit of a fun watching Blindspot. I kind of lose it because I come and go on it but it’s quite an interesting story – crime, terrorism. The other one is Virgin River which is this lovely community somewhere in Canada I guess. They’re my current go-to things when I need to do something a bit different.

Jenelle: Very good. What’s your superpower? Now it can be something additive to the world or a completely useless party trick!

Christine: I have to say and I’ve been using it quite a lot lately. I’m very calm.

Jenelle: You’re very calm. Ok well that is a superpower.

Christine: I’m very calm and I try to instil calmness around me and in terms of the people I’m working with, “It’s ok we’ll get there”.

Jenelle: Oh my God we need plenty of that! Particularly in these times. Now if you were going to put a quote up on a billboard what would it be?

Christine: I kind of alluded to this before but I’m not sure whose it is. Again, it is that “To those who much have given, much is expected.” Hopefully people might wonder about thinking through that quote. We are so privileged in many cases and I’m grateful for much of my privilege. I think in the sense of using what you have to the greater good of our community would be part of that.

Jenelle: I think that’s right. For where this opportunity there is also obligation to use that well. Thank you so much Christine for your time. Really enjoyed the conversation and the many, many pearls of wisdom you’ve shared with us. I loved your conversation around you listen to people – find out from those in the know. People in the community. People in the workplace who understand and I love maybe the extremely simple challenge. Did we really do that? Can we just do this? I think there is something that is so refreshing about that. I think whether you have been in the lowest of low positions or the highest of high, you’ve taken from that what you can to drive change consistently.
 
You have shared wisdom around how to use power and how to use power generously as you clearly have done for the disadvantaged and for local people and communities, minority groups. As a person of so many firsts you have truly been a pioneer and a brave role model. Maybe not always got it right but so powerful for you to share so unruly and honestly those moments. Maybe a moment of misjudgement that has taken a toll on you but you’ve been able to take and move forward and use constructively and we can all learn from that. I think there is no one of us that could claim that we’ve always totally got it right, but my God you’ve got some resilience about you and have clearly been able to front up and you’ve been able to as you say ‘Get over yourself’ where you’ve needed to and absolutely led the charge on what needs to be done. So I wanted to say thank you for what work you’ve done and thank you for sharing your time and insights with me today.

Christine: Thank you Jenelle you’ve been wonderful. Great conversation. Thank you for taking the time to hear the story and to help me unpack it a bit which has been terrific. Thank you for that.

The Change Happens podcast. From EY. A conversation on leading through change. Discover more where you get your podcasts.

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