Podcast transcript: EY Change Happens Podcast – Mike Baird

Voice Over: The podcast discusses the events of the Lindt café siege and mental health and may be distressing for some listeners. If you need support you can contact Lifeline on 131114.

Intro: Hi and welcome back to Season 4 of Change Happens. I’m Jenelle McMaster and this is a podcast exploring leadership through key moments of change and the lessons that they have learnt along the way. In a world that’s constantly changing, it gets difficult to know when you’re going in the right direction or when it’s time to start a new chapter. For some people, moments of change whether it’s small or seismic comes into their lives but are not recognised for what they are until some time down the track. Others seek change and make things happen, seizing the moment and squeezing all the juice from the experience. For Mike Baird, his is a story and a life where the main constant has been change, a lot of which he seems to have fallen into and a lot of which he consciously chooses how and when to exit. His stint in politics, most notably punctuated by his time as New South Wales Premier is book ended by an exploration of theology and experiences in the world of banking. Now CEO of Christian aged care provider, Hammond Care, Mike uses his breadth of experience and knowledge to make meaningful change in the world around him. So with that, welcome Mike, I’m very excited to have you join us on this episode of Change Happens.

Mike: Thanks Janelle, great to be on Change Happens.

Jenelle: [laugh], now Mike, you’ve been in the limelight for a very long time and you have juggled different positions in many industries from, theology to banking to politics, back to banking and now to sports and aged care. It does seem like you have the appetite for a little bit of everything. When you look back at your career and all of those different things that I’ve talked about, is there a common thread there?

Mike: Look, I think the common thread is I’ve always had this sense of a wrestle and the wrestle was, you know, whatever I was doing, I wanted to contribute, I wanted in some way to kind of help communities, state or country through others. You know, how do you help others in that environment and certainly challenging myself is another thread. I mean, I love … I love change and doing different things is always stimulating. I love learning and I think that is something that’s … that’s been constant and I, you know, probably the last thing is it’s just, to me, any job that you’re in, you have to feel that you’re contributing, that you’re adding value and certainly not wanting to become stale and, you know, that’s something that I’ve always kind of reflected on and, you know, you know, career wise it’s certainly not linear. You know, there’s all types of different roles but I think all of those kind of the … probably the common themes as I go through them.

Jenelle: It’s interesting and we will come back to kind of recognising “how do you recognise when you are stale” so I’m interested in coming back to that point but before I do, your father, Bruce Baird, was a prominent political figure in New South Wales who served as the Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party. When you watched him work, what did you think it was that politicians did and what made you want to do that?

Mike: Well, its probably the opposite! What I saw, I thought I don’t want anything to do with. I, you know, I watched Dad in a range of times and moments deal with significant stress, you know, back in the day there weren’t iPads and, you know, checking news clippings on your iPhone. There were newspapers delivered at 4am and I used to have many memories of him sort of being at the bottom of driveway in a not … let’s call it “not stylish dressing gown” waiting for the papers to arrive and then you could see what his response was like. You know, as he kind of opened them up at the bottom of the driveway and, you know, you knew he was in for a day/a week/a month of stress, you know, off the back of it. So I’d looked at that and being “wow, that’s not really something that I want for me”. Having said that, there were moments that I thought “wow, you know, notwithstanding that world, there is significant things that can be achieved” and you know, two things he did that stood out to me was the Olympic bid. He was charged with running Sydney’s Olympic bid and that was a massive moment in, you know, the city and state and country’s history and he did a fantastic role in that and I thought that was amazing and then the other … he was in federal parliament and he did a lot with refugees and certainly, you know, standing up for them and, you know, Australia’s approach to them was something I was very proud of, as he sort of went through that. So I saw that sort of many great things could be done but the overwhelming sense to me was “that’s Dad’s thing, not mine and I’ll try and carve another career out”.

Jenelle: So, attracted to the idea of being able to have impact but put off by lots of things that you saw there and so wanted to take a different track but somehow you did find your way into politics and not only that, a Premiership. So becoming Premier is something that many politicians aspire to achieve. You’ve had this wrestle with it and it was a little bit more of a serendipitous experience that make … that found you into the role of Premier. I’m wondering if you can just talk us through the day that you got asked to step up and what was going through your mind.

Mike: Look, you know, I mean obviously once I’d decided after a wrestle that actually maybe I could make a contribution in politics and, you know, from door knocking homes to … to winning an election that, you know, all the polls said I wouldn’t, to having the privilege of representing the community, I, you know, found myself then in government and Treasurer of the State and it was an unbelievable sort of time. The exhilaration of having the opportunity to shape and build, sort of the infrastructure that had been promised and never delivered. Things like metros and duplications of Pacific Highway and schools and hospitals. It was an incredible time but then, yeah, there was this day that came along where I was speaking at an event. It was a sort of financial analysis and we were kind of talking about state of the economy in New South Wales and our infrastructure spend and I thought that it was going well but my media officer who was at the end of the table kind of had this sort of pained look on her face while I was sort of delivering and answering Q&A. So much so then I look down, I said … the first thing I said … I said “Rach, like what was wrong, like I thought that went well …

Jenelle: [laugh] I did well!

Mike: … did I say something not … not right or not answer the question”. She said “Mike, no … no stop … you know Barry has resigned”. I said “What!” No, he’s resigned. You know, he’s … he’s leaving the premiership and I’m like “oh my goodness”. So it was like the world has kind of stopped and I had almost … well basically 24 hours of kind of madness that ensued and you know, at the end of that I found myself standing in the premier’s office and saying “my goodness, how did this happen” [laugh].

Jenelle: What … tell me what was going through your head though, not just the “how did this happen” but how did you feel?

Mike: At the end of the 24 hours or at the start!

Jenelle: [laugh] Before, during, after!

Mike: I mean at the start it was just this overwhelming sense. I thought like who would be Premier and I thought “well maybe I could”. So … and then I immediately thought of my family and, you know, what would that mean to them and have to go see them. My overwhelming sense was to go and see my family and talk to them. I spoke to a couple of colleagues on the way out and, you know, there was a sense like “look, we think that if you want to do it, that we will back you” and so there was this surreal sense to it. I didn’t, in the 24 hours, make any phone calls. There were people calling round saying that he’s not calling anyone, this is ridiculous like, you know, does he want it, but I was quite clear in my mind. I just needed to get to my close friends and my family and, you know, be clear in mind that this is something that we think, because it was a collective that we should do, because I knew the toll it would take. I’d seen it and it was significant and it required everyone. So that … that period was very much about being clear in the mind, okay. This is something I can put my hand up for and then once I decided that in the morning, you know, I spoke to Gladys and said “look, if I’m running, would you be my deputy” and she was very keen to do that, I wanted her as a Deputy so we put our names forward and we announced that she and I would run as a team. When the vote came in, I went back to the office, I’m standing there, it was a sense of bewilderment, excitement but also trepidation. I knew the journey was going to have its challenges and I was also weighed down with kind of the history and the responsibility. You know, all of that kind of crack down but the next day was an exciting one because my first appointment was to show Wills and Kate around Sydney. So … it was a royal visit.

Jenelle: Wow, that’s not too shabby! [laugh] and Mike you said, you know, I can understand all of that melting pot of emotions in there but the fact that you said, you know, I knew the toll it would take. So you sort of did go … as bewildered as you were about it, eyes wide open from having observed your father, was there anything that you remember thinking about, even in that 24 hour decision making window where you were like, I saw … I know the toll it could take, here’s what I need to do to protect myself and my family, if I’m going to take this on. Was there some conscious thought around what you might need to do to mitigate that toll.

Mike: The answer is no. You know, what … and I worked that out as I went, you know, that was a learning and I wasn’t perfect early on but, you know, by the time I got to the end of my time in public life, I think I had a pretty good rhythm in terms of protection of self and family, social media, criticism, all those sort of things, I think there were good mechanisms in place but it was learnt. It was learnt through …

Jenelle: Mm, along the way!

Mike: … experience and you know, adult battle scars. I mean that’s where it came but no, look you know, to me it’s … the most important thing was wrestling with the family and like any family, there were sort of challenges and, you know, there were perspectives that we had to go through and, you know, sort of close friends discussing those openly, you know, with the family every single one talking through it. Before you jumped at it, that foundation needed to be set and it was set strongly. So once I had that and it cleared, confidence in that, you know, everything I thought could be dealt with. In terms of the downside, yeah I’d seen … my father, he hadn’t been Premier but I worked alongside Barry as well and when you work alongside a Premier, you know and can see, you know, what they deal with on a daily basis. Until you get there, you underestimate it but what I’d seen as Treasurer and watching it, I knew in essence, that it wasn’t going to be easy.

Jenelle: It certainly wasn’t going to be easy. There were several tragic events during your time as Premier. The biggest was the Lindt siege in 2014. That was just eight months into your term. What skills did you already have and attributes I guess, to lean on through that period of time and what new ones did you have to learn.

Mike: Well, it was … yeah, I mean, confronting in every way to sort of, in a crisis cabinet and obviously leading that crisis cabinet at a time like that was, you know, not something that you really prepare for and to find yourself there is … is kind of surreal but you know, in that moment, there was a reliance on the experts, you know, were all around, you know, that cabinet. There were people undertaking specific things, you know, transport was sort of going up and down to make sure that transport was available and people were being cleared out of stations. We had schools connecting … the Education Department connecting into, you know, all the school excursions who were across the city, finding where they were and acting. We had the health department sort of clearing space and room in hospitals nearby, all the adjoining hospitals and lining up obviously ambulance support. So there was this almost machine-like approach. So it was relying on the experts, you know, at that time and, of course, the police were working, and you know, in time there was some criticism of the action that I can tell you that from every minute that I saw, every single person then was doing whatever was in their capability, skill and experience to get every single one of those hostages out and, you know, I thought the police did an amazing job. I met the person and the team that actually went into that café, you know, late that night. The person that goes in first of those teams will always call their family when they’re assigned because they rotate who goes in first with the risk and, you know, so you know, that person had called his family, a couple of young kids and, you know, hard for us to imagine, you know, what that’s like …

Jenelle: Absolutely!

Mike: … there’s no … we have these incredible people that are there for moments like that and they don’t happen on that scale but happen regularly in sort of suburbs, you know. For me to see that and witness that, you know, was incredible and, you know, relying on that expertise, you know, was something that was clear and it was something that I’d done previously but never to that extent. I never had that scale or requirement. You know, the other thing I think was, you know, how do you deal with the community in that. I mean, people, you know, there’s tragic loss of life and I’ll never forget, you know, standing there and hearing the ambulances coming and knowing that it was likely that we’d lost young lives and Tori and Katrina were lost and, you know, there’s a couple of parts with it. You know, the first is, you know, connecting into those families and it’s always something that I sort of tried to do, that is connect personally to people and, you know, empathy. Just empathise with this incredible tragedy. You know, we … very hard for us to understand in any way what that would be like but I felt their pain and I think that was part of the role of, you know, sort of being there, engaging, doing what we can to support, you know, sharing in pain and celebrating two incredible young Australians who we lost. So that’s just a human element, isn’t it and just trying to be human is what I try to do and, you know, I had a role but, you know, this was just, you know, me as my connecting into family members in a way to try and help with their pain and then all the hostages as well. I mean, what trauma they went through and, you know, engage with them sort of over weeks and months and even years. I’m still seeing some even recently. So you know, that human element, I think, was something, so experts in human and then, you know, the last is like how do you kind of lead people in response and I mean it could have gone two ways. I think, there was the sort of great anger and there was hate and kind of wanting vengeance almost for what had taken place and, you know, there was a great risk that that’s where the city could go but there was this sense of amazing grace and I think that rather than hate, there was love and, you know, you saw that. There was a unity and a love that came and, you know, the best of people was actually demonstrated so how do you connect with that and how do you create that. I mean I was … I was approached by a group of young Muslim leaders that I had engaged with in my time as Premier and, you know, they reached out and said “look, we want to go and put flowers” … if you remember the flowers, that’s how people showed it to me …

Jenelle: I do, absolutely! Such a powerful visual.

Mike: Yeah, and people just came to put flowers. You know, to tell Tori and Katrina’s families, we’re with you, we’re so sorry and … and I also think then to the hostages and say “you know, we’re glad you’re safe” and this city, we love this city and we love our freedoms, we love our values and, you know, there was all of that and, you know, these young Muslim leaders wanted to come and put flowers there and they contacted our office, you know, my office and I said “look, I’ll go with them”. I had met them previously and I said “no, let’s … let’s go and do this together” and, you know, there was trepidation in that but, you know, as we went down, I needn’t have worried. The response from the crowd … oh, it will stay with me always because, you know, there was, you know, fears about young Muslims and the ideology that was, you know, community kind of fear but here were young men that were against extremism. Now they had a Muslim faith but they cared deeply for what had taken place and they just wanted to express their concern and love. As they walked through, there were people that were patting them on the back. You know, they hugged them and, you know, there were tears and there were thank yous and it was … it was beautiful and as they put it down, you know, one of them said to me “I have never felt more part of Australia than today.”

Jenelle: Wow!

Mike: So, you know, in those sort of moments, you know, how do you connect into the best of people as opposed to visions of retribution and hate and, you know, I think we saw in the city that week in particular, the best of the best. There was this wonderful spirit of support and mourning and grieving and unity that I hadn’t really seen before. So you know, through the experience, all those sort of things, I mean it was a pretty impactful time for, you know, many people and obviously personally as well.

Jenelle: It’s … it’s a really great reminder particularly given the context that we find ourselves in today, that in times of crisis we can and should come together in solidarity, rather than factionalise in anger and, you know, polarised positions on things. During the same period and there was a long that was happening. Literally in the same period of time, you also had to comfort a family who had lost a son on Malaysian Airlines MH17. You also had to absorb the pain of the policing community after the shooting of the unarmed police civilian finance worker, Curtis Cheng. Lots going on Mike and as you say, you feel these things deeply. Who … who did you turn to yourself during this period of time.

Mike: Yeah, I mean that’s … I mean, as you bring them back, there’s flashes and kind of memories and yeah, I mean, you know, the pain of all those are real and, you know, those families said “are you still … would be feeling it, you know, acutely”. So yeah, look I would connect in with my wife. You know, she’s kind of been a soulmate on my journey and, you know, she was there in the darkest days and the best days and certainly these days, as I went through those. She was great comfort, you know, as a faith, I mean I have a faith so that sustained me, sort of through that and, you know, looking for encouragement and support and there is, you know, the church I went to were supportive. You know, many in there were supportive and close friends. You know, there was just a group of close friends that I engage with and, you know, could tell them honestly, you know, how I was feeling and the impact things were having because there’s, you know, there’s a sense of being authentic but, you know, your kind of deep pain is … is very difficult to kind of share, you know, on a wide public scale, you know. I mean, people are interested but not necessarily that interested [laugh], you know, can you just make the trains run on time please …

Jenelle: [laugh] Exactly.

Mike: … you know. So, and that’s totally understandable. So there is a sense that there is just a sort of select few that I think is important and, you know, it’s a lonely place. Leadership is a lonely place and, you know, someone once said to me that as a leader, that probably the loneliest place is in the busiest room, you know, or the busiest times and …

Jenelle: Wow!

Mike: … there’s kind of frenetic energy and things around you but it’s just you and your thoughts and dealing with complex issues, difficult issues and knowing there’s, you know, very few people that you can … you can kind of share that with. So having them, you know, that collection, was incredibly important in those times and, you know, that pales in comparison to all the families that you just spoke about, what they’d been through. So, you know, also mindful of that.

Jenelle: Thank you for that vulnerability. I mean I do think it’s a big thing to say about … to talk about the loneliness of leadership. On the discussion of leadership, when you and I spoke the other day, I was really struck by the way that you spoke about how you saw leadership and leadership roles. Almost like you had … you were so deeply connected to it but you also have a distance from it, almost like it’s an object. You said and I think these were the words that you used around leadership “hold it lightly, use it greatly”. What did you mean by that and tell me how … what that looks like and looked like for you.

Mike: Yeah I think as I have looked at leaders and observed them, been alongside leaders, there’s many who … you know, when they get into roles of significance and, you know, any senior management position really, you know, people start to kind of link, you know, their identity and who they are into the roles and, you know, to me that was always unhealthy because, you know, I mean leaders come and go and there’s much more about any person than just, you know, the job they do or the role they have or the responsibilities they have, you know, who are they as people, you know, what are their dreams and aspirations, you know, the dignity and respect of them goes well beyond kind of any role and that … that was always a sense to me. Like hold it lightly, you are not defined by it and, you know, just because, you know, I’m a CEO today, you know, I am no more important than a care worker that is currently in one of our facility in a specialist dementia cottage, you know, looking after people living with dementia, challenging incredibly important purpose filled work and, you know, they’re doing an amazing job and my job is to try and help them do that. Now, I’ve got roles and responsibilities as CEO but that doesn’t make me any more important than them. Indeed, anything I can do to help them, then I’m doing my job and I think that that’s, you know, the best form of mindset, you know, it’s just … you have this role and responsibility but it’s not you, you know. There’s much more to you in terms of humanity and character and values and dignity and value, well beyond a role and, you know, that’s one side of it. The other side is that, which is kind of connected, you know, I’ve read this book called “Martin Buber”. He speaks about two ways that we can communicate in life. It’s called “I-It and I-Thou” and most of the world is I-It and that is every single interaction is kind of transactional, you know, a boss saying to you on Monday “well how was your weekend?” Great, tick the box, okay this is what I need from you this week. That’s the classic kind of I-It. You’re not valued, you’re not engaged. It’s just functional and the I-Thou is different. It’s tools down. You know, it’s connecting in individually personally. Not with yourself involved. You’re thinking of others. You engage with that. You’re looking at events, moments and people, most particularly, with a context of who they are and the value and I try to use that and it’s the same thing in terms of holding it lightly. It’s … yes, you know, CEOs out there, if you’ve got the CEO title but that person in front of you deserves a Thou, not an It, you know, drop everything, your inbox, your next meeting, your last meeting, your important sort of board papers that are coming up – stop. Like right in front of you is someone that’s significant value and they are the most important person right now. What they need, what they need to say, what they need you to do. Just sit and be and listen and, you know, that takes the title out of it and the role out of it, the leadership position out of it and it becomes back to this, you know, human interaction. So that’s something which is holding it lightly. I try to do kind of regularly. From the moment I was kind of dropped into that understanding. As I said, if you read the book, it’s hard to understand. I had someone explain it to me, Electra, you know, that’s the stuff we do, very powerful and then using it greatly. I think that it’s the same thing. All leaders, like you’ve got a finite time, you know, an average kind of three to five years as a leader, senior leader. Well use it. Give it a crack. Don’t … don’t just tread water, you know, don’t just keep doing what is being done. I mean some of it sure, that might make sense but challenge yourself, challenge the team, look for the opportunities that others might have thought were too hard, take on the challenges likewise that have been put to someone else to deal with it – you do it. All of those things, like use it because that’s what I think is missing. If you talk to most political leaders, there’s this research that was done, almost all and it applies as much to CEOs and leaders of charities, not-for-profits, super funds, it doesn’t matter. When they leave their roles, their biggest regret is they didn’t take enough risk. So I think there’s that sense. You have this role, use it, you know, take the risk, be bold.

Jenelle: I love that, love that and can I say, whilst I have never said, never thought about the words “you deserve a Thou, not an It”, it makes me think, even the other day Mike, I walked into a room to speak to somebody and they were busy as I always am and other people are and they had their laptop open in front of them and I walked in and they put the lid down and that, whilst I wouldn’t have put these words to it, as I think about it now, that was a really symbolic moment of feeling like a “Thou” and not an “It”. They put their laptop screen down and said “I’m here for you, what is it you want to talk about”. I think it’s just incredibly powerful so really really stays with me.

Mike: Wasn’t that … isn’t that great Jenelle, like it was clear that you felt that you were prioritised, important and there was a different sense in that interaction than if that laptop had stayed up.

Jenelle: Absolutely. I reflected on it when I was driving back. I mean it really struck me. I was like the smallest gesture completely the temperature in the room. It stayed with me, the fact that I was driving home and thinking about that small move made me go “those are the things that matter and I’ll make sure that I do that too”. Mike, despite the challenges that we talked about then as you were in the Premier role, from the outside it did seem like you were living the dream. You made a substantial impact as Premier. You were thought to be a shoo-in as the next Prime Minister of Australia. All the signs were pointing to a long and successful career in politics but, and you know, we talked about what it was like to find yourself accidentally in the role. If that was a surprise advancement to make Premier, then I would say it was equally a surprise, if not more so to the country, that you then decided to resign halfway through your government’s first term. It was a decision that made many Australians wonder “what the hell happened there” and sadly, I’ve got to say when a politician steps down saying they want to spend more time with the family, we probably sort of, it’s maybe a damning thing on us that we’re almost conditioned to believe that there’s a scandal story about to emerge, that they’re wanting to get ahead of. So maybe we still haven’t made sense of it. Is there something that you want to come clean with now. What was the story there Mike?

Mike: [laugh]. No no and I’ve had people come up me afterwards and say “you know, I was just suspicious that there was something going on”. I mean they were lovely. They said we didn’t want you go and we wanted you to stay but it was one of the hardest decisions I’ve made but also one of the easiest and I think, probably three factors played a role in it. I mean, one – you know, there was sort of goals and objectives. If you go back to the beginning, I never wanted to go into politics and be institutionalised. I thought, you know, it would be great to have an opportunity to go in and make a difference and then to leave. So I had always in my mind had, you know, if I was given an opportunity to be, you know, treasurer I would use it as much as I could and then, you know, hand it across and go and do something else in my career. Just a chance to contribute was a way I look at it and before I went in, I did a list of all the things that I would love to have achieved if I was given the opportunity in government and in politics. So coming up to the third year, I … and I’d been three years as treasurer and obviously three years as Premier, so I was kind of six years in that front line roles and I looked at the list and I had ticked everything. I, you know, the big part was the infrastructure piece. I thought I could use the finance background I had to try and unlock some capital and deliver the infrastructure the state needed: schools, hospitals, roads, trains, you know, sporting facilities, cultural facilities, you know, regionally and in Sydney. So that had been achieved. We had just signed off on the final sort of transaction and that was a long journey. I thought “okay, I’ve achieved that”. The second which was also important was by the time I got towards the end, we’ve spoken about some of those difficult events and, you know, that’s the time and MPs, Ministers and Premier will often interact with people in really tough situations, tough circumstances and we’ve gone through some of those and I’d always been able to kind of connect in and feel the pain, you know, of those I was meeting with and I realised, you know, for the last couple of months, actually when I’d been in those meetings I had felt nothing. I was completely and utterly numb and that amazed me. I’d never had that feeling. I didn’t know where it had come from and, you know, I think that part of it is there is this sense of self that … that is broken when you interact, you know, on some of these stories or, you know, I remember seeing, you know, a poor man in public housing who was kicked out of public housing on Christmas eve, you know, so he had nowhere to live on Christmas day and, you know. That’s just one example but there are so many like that and that, you know, you feel that and I’d always had but that numbness concerned me and I thought “well I don’t know how I can do this job if I don’t feel that at all or empathise when you’re faced with those situations and people” and then the last one was the family and people are cynical on it but, you know, the toll. I mean my … my daughters were bullied on the lockout laws, you know. They were introduced by Barry. I continued them, you know, I believed in them because they were saving lives and, you know, my daughters copped the brunt. My eldest daughter never ever told me, never told me that she was being bullied. She just said she was proud of me for sticking to what I believe in but she had been impacted by politics. She ended up sort of moving out of Sydney, you know. She just didn’t like the attention. She obviously didn’t like me being attacked at times and so the family carried this burden, you know. My wife was unbelievably supportive, you know, she obviously concerned for kids and all, you know. We had intruders come to the house. We had security 24/7. We had drones fly around, you know, we have police follow us, every single member of the family at times for weeks. Television cameras at 4.50 in the morning. It all takes a toll. At the same time, my sister was unwell and my Mum was diagnosed with a serious disease and I was unable to be with her, you know, in this role. So that collection, you know, was a significant thing because it’s such a privilege and a joy to have the responsibility of leading the state and being the MP of my community but as I was weighing all that up and going away for a week and my wife said “no, it’s time, I think it’s time”. So the moment that decision was made, there was this sense of relief and, you know, since I’ve left I haven’t sort of wished I was back but the same time, incredibly proud and thankful for the opportunity I have.

Jenelle: Ooh, that makes complete sense and I understand it on every level, with your family, with yourself. It’s … there’s stuff that you’ve talked about there which I can completely relate to as a … somebody who used to be … I was a psychologist in prisons and when you give yourself, I mean you have a lot of empathy, it does take its toll and sometimes what you need is self-preservation which is where the numbness kicks in. When the numbness kicks in to self-preserve, your ability to be as effective because that … your very super power is the thing that you are keeping at bay. You know, that empathy, it’s really something difficult to grapple with so I completely relate to that. If you just think about that dynamic, when your super power, so your empathy, like your ability to connect to feel things deeply becomes the very thing that then takes a toll and you have to self-preserve. What have you taken forward from that as you’ve gone onto your other multiple careers, knowing that about yourself. What have you taken forward from there?

Mike: You know, knowing that, there’s … there is self-preservation. So, you know, I will be very careful now that if I am sort of run down or feeling not just tired but bone tired, or you know, not yet numb but feeling those warning signs, then I’ll disconnect and, you know, I will take time off and, you know, and with my incredible EA Belle, it will be no communication time, you know, so emails/phones like just time off and genuine time off. So I’ve got much better at that but also you don’t, you know, there are times that you need help and I’ve sought kind of help as well and I certainly think in terms of mental health, we don’t talk about that enough and there are kind of experts and tools that can help and, you know, if there are events and circumstances you’ve been through, sometimes you can’t see, you know, or feel or truly understand the impact, but being prepared to do that, I think is important. So, you know, that’s something that I’m much more conscious now than I never would have and, you know, that’s thanks to my Mum who, you know, after the siege she couldn’t sort of talk at the time, so she had to type, you know, for a period towards the end of her life and she said “you know, go see counsellor” is what she told me after the siege and I said “no, it will be okay Mum, it will be okay, I’ll be okay” but, you know, she was right, you know, I should have. So, you know, that’s helpful but it is protecting. I mean everyone has super powers, a bit generous Jenelle, I mean that … I’d call that, you know, something I love, engaging with and, you know, hopefully it’s part of my leadership and, you know, in that, you know, using it, you know, so protecting and in using it is important and I never want to shy away from it, you know, I never want to be in the position where I am numb. If something is coming, I want to be there and if you think about the Thou. If someone is in a really tough situation, they don’t want someone sitting there “glazed”, you know, they want someone to listen and to understand and to connect in a way that’s deeply human. So I always want to use it but, you know, you have to protect it. I think that’s right.

Jenelle: So speaking of you coming out politics looking for some restorative time there, but a month later you transitioned into the role of Chief Customer Officer at NAB. What was your thinking and rationale for heading back into banking.

Mike: Yeah, well it was … yeah I mean I was called the Saturday after I’d resigned and yeah, it was three months before I started in the role and it was what I was familiar with. You know, I’d spent 20 years in banking. I needed to work. I was obviously very familiar with banking, yeah I’d spent actually a lot of my career on the wholesale side and this was to run a wholesale bank and I was excited by it, you know, and I sort of certainly … the CEO was someone I respected and, you know, had known, high values, sort of great visions. So yeah, it was a brand new chapter. So you know, going from, you know, the Premier and then having three months off and it was crazy three months and, you know, if I roll back the clock, you know, notwithstanding the financial need because I mean there was no pension for my class and above. So since 2007 there are no pensions for MPs but I still should have taken more time. So, you know, to go back into a role was a bit early but having said that, I loved it. Really really enjoyed the role but it probably takes about 12 months to get through the dust and scars and turmoil of a stint in politics.

Jenelle: Politics, yeah! You took on few more C-suite roles before landing into your current positions as the Chair of Cricket Australia and the CEO of Hammond Care, two very different organisations.

Mike: Mmmm.

Jenelle: There seems to be a common thread of opportunities for change finding you at times when you’re ready to close a chapter and start something new. Is that how you see it and how do you make your decisions about which opportunities are the ones to take?

Mike: Yeah, well it’s … yeah, my wife would say as I went from politics and then to banking which had a royal commission during my time there and then I went into aged care where there was a royal commission kind of underway, so it’s kind of so forth

Jenelle: [laugh]. Okay, so you like royal commissions.

Mike: Well I do love a challenge and I love, you know, the opportunity to impact people, to lead teams, to change cultures, to tackle impossible things. I’ve always enjoyed that. You know, banking – there is a clear kind of outline, you know, with the royal commission on culturally what was wrong with the sector and, you know, I saw it in elements that, you know, when I was there. So I think they’re well overdue and needed in terms of that cultural reset across the sector. You know, the way you treat customers, engage with customers, engage with the community. So I think that, you know, to a degree there has been significant change. I don’t think enough change in that sector. You know, aged care similarly. I mean, we do it. There were some terrible stories of neglect and sort of broke the hearts of many across the country but, you know, I think the royal commission’s made a number of recommendations. The governments, you know, on both sides, significant funding commitments, increased funding commitments from the current government, there’s real hope there. You know, the opportunity to help, you know, those carers, you know, when I go back to my personal experience, I ended up in Hammond Care predominantly because I’d seen aged care through my Mum and the wonder of it. You know, how important it was and the carers and the work they did. So the motivation wasn’t just the challenge but there was a personal connection and I thought “wow, if I can, as CEO, help them, then that’s something is really worthwhile and purposeful in itself. So … and that’s part of it. I think that the sector was sort of under pressure, underfunded, undervalued and I’d seen to know “look, I get that and I can get this neglect but I can tell you I’ve seen the wonder of this, these care workers – they change lives and they have the biggest hearts and we should be celebrating them and we should be valuing them and I think as a country, we should be and we should be valuing our elderly”. So all of those kind of thoughts and perspectives, you know, to be able to roll into this role, I thought “well, what a fantastic opportunity to lead” and cricket … look cricket was a passion project, on the tragic cricket follower. Some people don’t like the word “tragic” but I … that’s a good description because there’s not a match I wouldn’t watch. I’d watch every minute of the …

Jenelle: [laugh]

Mike: … every test match if I could. The World Cup has just shown how incredible it is. Someone like Meg Lanning, I think is one of Australia’s great leaders …

Jenelle: Outstanding!

Mike: … and incredible achievement on the cricket field. To have the chance to shape a sport I love and I’ve, you know, been involved in club cricket, I’ve played a lot myself and sort of have the chance to serve and contribute in this way is … yeah it’s a privilege as well. So yeah, enjoying all of it Jenelle.

Jenelle: I can hear that. So for my final question. What’s left to do that you haven’t yet tackled or achieved.

Mike: [laugh] Well Jenelle, I’m not sure. I mean I think … I mean I feel still youngish [laugh] …

Jenelle: You look still youngish.

Mike: … I learned in the last couple of weeks that I’m about to become a grandfather for the first time … that’s kind of breaking news …

Jenelle: Congrats!

Mike: … and, you know, that’s a new chapter in life which I am very much looking forward to. I think that will be very special to have that. So look, I would say Jenelle, I’m … I’m open. I don’t know whether I would take another senior role, in times, so an executive style role or whether I might do portfolio. I’ll keep working. I think my wife said “you can wind back a bit but you’re going to keep working and if you didn’t, you would drive us all crazy”.

Jenelle: [laugh]

Mike: So I’ll certainly be doing something, but it’s kind of exciting. For a big part of my life, there’s been very clear idea of where I’m going and what I’m doing next. That’s … I’ve almost always had that but I think I’m at a period where I’ll just be open to what could come and sort of working with people or in cultures and purpose would be something that I look forward to, but you know, also a bit of grandfather time.

Jenelle: Ooh, that’s so exciting. Congratulations to you on that and I think I look forward to seeing how the many more chapters ahead of you unfolds. No doubt you’ll have huge impact and Mike, I wanted to say massive thank you for joining me today. What a wonderful discussion. For me, your purpose around contribution through others is really clear. You used the words and, you know, in really simple ways. You said “I try to be human” which sounds really simplistic and … but there’s a real humility and a real genuine and critical and powerful element to that, trying to be human really is what it’s about. It’s just being. I think as you reflect on some of those situations with you as Premier and the Lindt situation, there’s a real reminder in there about the power of coming together in solidarity, rather than turning on each other and the need to connect into the best of people. I think that’s within us all. I really feel the power in your words around leadership. Holding it lightly and using it greatly. Holding it lightly – that brings a beautiful stewardship philosophy to everything that you’ve done, that puts ego at bay and puts you very much in a servant leader position and then using it greatly. I love that call to action, have a crack, have impact, take on the challenge, be bold and dare I say “make change happen”. I will forever, hold on the words of “you deserve a Thou, not an It” and all of that represents and thank you also for sharing the toll that things have taken on you and what you’ve learnt about recognising the signs and the signals around seeking help, giving proper time off and my takeaway, by the way, from all of that was “listen to your mother” and so I’m going to make my children listen to this and that’s their big takeaway too.

Mike: [laugh]

Jenelle: So thank you so much Mike, it’s been an absolute pleasure to talk to you.

Mike: Pleasure … pleasure to join you Jenelle, really appreciate it, thank you.

END OF TAPE RECORDING