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Mona Bitar:

Hello everyone, I’m Mona Bitar, EY’s Vice Chair in the UK and Ireland, and a member of the EY UK Diversity, Equity and Inclusiveness council.

You’re listening to Strong When We Belong, a podcast series created and produced by EY in the UK.

At EY, we believe that a strong sense of belonging can lead to better collaboration, retention and business performance. This series is dedicated to sharing uplifting conversations and personal stories about belonging in the context of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. You will often hear this shortened and referenced throughout as DE&I.

Each episode features a conversation led either by myself or one of the other members of EY’s DE&I council, including Shaun Scantlebury, Joanne Conway and Fatima Tresh.

We really hope that these conversations inspire individuals and organisations to think differently and drive positive action and change.

Hello, Austin. Thank you so much for joining me. It's an absolute delight to have you here. Just briefly before we get started, tell me a little bit about yourself and why you've joined me today.

Austin Swain:

Yeah no, great stuff. Thanks Mona. I'm one of the partners in EY Lane4. I work within the People Advisory part of the business. And it's really interesting that you and I are having this conversation because you were the, shall we say, the trigger for me being here. You ran a session back in November, December, I believe. And at the end you spoke about your own neurodiversity, and you spoke very passionately and fluently at the end about encouraging people to be bold in sharing some of their own neurodiverse experiences and stories.

So, there was a call to arms, and I had recently been diagnosed with both ADHD and autism. And I guess this is the impulsive bit of me - within 2 hours of you having that call to arms, I phoned you and you said, actually, Austin, why don't you think about it? And I did. But here I am and here we are talking about it.

Bitar:

I'm really delighted that you did call me. And I remember sharing my story around my hearing disability. Actually, a number of people have reached out to me. And actually, it's quite timely that we're doing this now. I know that this podcast will be released in a few weeks from now, but I'll just tell the audience that we're in April right now, and April is an Autism Awareness Month.

And so, I guess, you know, interesting, you know that you said that you've been recently diagnosed. So, tell me a little bit more about your sort of personal story. I mean, you know, we're both of a certain age, Austin, and recently is not very long ago. So, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Swain:

Actually, no Mona, that is really interesting because the fact that it is probably five or six months since your inspiration, so to speak, that has taken me time to process it because I'm 59. And you're right, I was diagnosed.  I guess the first part of the process was I was diagnosed with ADHD and I was 58 and I can share some of that in a moment.

And then it led subsequently to a follow up diagnosis with autism. And it's the combination of the two that I think is relevant. I'm conscious this is Autism Week, but I can't talk about one without talking about the other. It's the combination for me, and the unique combination at that. And I think the other thing is that I am still working it through.

I contemplated saying actually, Mona, for all my hasty impulse, I'm not ready. But then that would be part of type and what you and I talk about here, it doesn't have to be perfect. I don't have to mask. I'm just wanting to tell you that I am on a journey because I would like to think that people of my age or younger, if they are considering a diagnosis, they do not hesitate because I'll be honest with you. I wish I had found out at 18. I wish I'd found out at 38, instead of finding out at 58. Now I know the world has moved on and there's a whole different landscape around that. But I think if I'd found out earlier, I would have been a better husband, a better father, a better son, a better friend, a better colleague.

It's futile trying to turn the clock back, but that is one of my encouragements, especially now that diagnoses are much more prevalent, much more of higher quality than ever before. And I do think that there is a Danish philosopher called Kierkegaard who talks about we understand our life looking backwards, but we have to live it going forwards.

And so, what's happened over the last five or six months is that I have been reflecting on those experiences, such that I can work with this now and hopefully be a better husband, father, son, colleague going forwards. So that's part of the background.

Bitar:

That's really that's really interesting, Austin. Maybe if I can dig in a little bit into that, you know, why do you think you would have been a better father, son, etc.? Why do you think that diagnosis would have made a difference to that, had it been earlier?

Swain:

Yeah, great question. And I think part of it is what I've learned and noticed and how I would like to think I've become a better person in the last six months. I mean, that's a shortened sort of answer to the question because I have always been mystified by various frustrations of self but never properly understood it. And I think about the great raising of awareness I've had of self in just in six months.

What would have been if that would've been six years or 26 years? And I sometimes think what could have been, but that's back to my earlier comment that is futile. And I think there is something about understanding such that you then try and manage it. It should never be an excuse. It's all about performance, but it's recognising, what are- how I look after myself, how I manage the environment, how I am more aware of triggers, how I can be at my best on a more regular basis than at my worst.

Because that combination of the ADHD, which is a very strong diagnosis as well as the autism, means I am contradiction city. I have paradoxes. I have to navigate paradoxes every minute of every day. And I think I'm now getting better at doing that. The second thing, Mona, and I’ll come straight to it because you talked about what have been some of my biases,

Game changing, for me, it forced me in the direction of medication. So, I take Concerta, I take sertraline, and that has been a game changer for me. And I for years was always dismissive, almost supercilious about people who took drugs to manage their mental health. And I think, yeah, I was about to use a disparaging word about myself because if I had maybe got over that, I would have sought a diagnosis earlier.

Bitar:

That's interesting. And it's quite interesting how we have some deeply held beliefs. But then something happens, and they're challenged. What would you say to other people on, you know, how might they challenge their biases and assumptions?

Swain:

Well, I think there is something about just getting to understand. I mean, if I just talk about some of my own sort of diagnoses, because the result, there are individual variables every time. So how I express that combination is unique. But what is interesting is that there is the almost the ADHD representation and then there's the autism representation.

And because of that contradictory nature, I know that some people have got, shall we say, confused by that or don't understand. And because I've been masking and haven't shared, then I don't think I've ever... I haven't necessarily got the best out of those relationships. So there is something about that, trying to become the expert, seeking to understand.

And if I, I've just got some got some examples here about these unique contradictions, because friendships were always hard for me. So, in other words, the autism bit means that you struggle to pick out social cues, but the ADHD bit is you struggle to adhere to social cues. So even if you do pick them up. So, I would often offend people by forgetting names and promises.

And yet I would make good by understanding or seeing something that no one else had clocked. You know, I would, for example, sometimes I struggle to get things done because the autism bit means that it has to be a very specific way of doing it. Whereas the ADHD says I have to do it in a fun way, so I need a routine, but I crave, I crave novelty and so there is something about this almost irrationality.

I sometimes think about Shakespeare, because Shakespeare obviously talks about comedies and histories and tragedies, but he also talks about three characters. He talks about a lot of these characters are built around lunatics, lovers and poets. And so, the lunatic bit, this is my default, I go, you know, the ADHD bit likes irrationality, the ADHD bit is you are at home with uncertainty and you're actually quite relaxed about what's going on.

Whereas for people who are autistic, that's terrifying. And so that first bit about the being sort of the being quite comfortable with irrationality, I know in my past I've been accused, people have said, ‘oh, Austin's a nonconformist’, but I think they're missing the point because I don't choose not to conform because I don't ever notice what the standard is that I'm not conforming to.

And so, I'm often slow on the uptake. And that's why I've got colleagues like Jamie Crystal who says to me, ‘Austin, you need to complete that’, because- and therefore there is something about his understanding of my condition has helped him lead me and support me. So, I'm just using that as an example. So that's almost the lunatic bit.

And then if I come to, I stay with that theme of Shakespeare, and the lover bit, there is something about I have a sort of I would call it unbridled optimism. I mean, I never I've never met an opportunity that I didn't want to pursue. And I get carried away and I have a lot of enthusiasm.

And actually, one of the things and I think this is why EY triggered my need for the diagnosis, because we join and it's a very, very different context if you think about it. Lane4, I was one of the founders. Through 27 years. I knew every nook and cranny of that organisation. I was in complete control.

In many ways the organisation morphed around me, not in a selfish or arrogant way, but because Adrian would never have allowed that. But I knew it. And I then, it was a choice, but we joined EY, and I've got this labyrinth, this incredibly complex organisation with enormous difference. And I used to make this joke about the fact that I think there are 330,000 people in EY, and I think I've had an email from all of them.

And of course, the punchline is, and I've replied to all of them. And of course, so therefore- the demands came in and people talked about, ‘Austin, you'll be drinking from a fire hose’. And I thought that's fine, I've got stamina. I know what working hard looks like. But I was doing so in a completely different environment.

And I mention that because part of the things that I think now, my PA Debbie, she's the wonderful Debbie Griffin, I will often say to her early on- she’ll say, ‘Austin, you’re treble booked and you've accepted all three meetings, you're not just double booked, you're treble booked.’ And I've gone, yeah, well, I'll try and make it work.

And if I can't, I'll seek forgiveness. And that's part of that unbridled optimism, which I'll reference in a minute. And then we had this one incredible moment where I was treble booked and in real time a fourth invite came in. She now understands. And we have different modes of operating, which makes my life so much easier.

When I was diagnosed and this is interesting, the woman who did the diagnosis said to me, my wife was with me. She said to me, based on your profile, you're lucky to be alive and she's keeping you alive. And I wondered whether she was just being melodramatic. She didn't think I was listening because I refused to believe I was autistic because of some preconceptions, I understood ADHD, both the attention deficit bit and the hyperactivity bit, but I had no understanding of that. So, I was almost like fending it off, and she almost called me on that.

And so that's where that hyperfocus sometimes can do me some harm. If people are aware of your diagnosis, that's not an excuse for anything. But I think you need to raise your game as a coach in terms of how you challenge and support.

Bitar:

I guess that leads me maybe to a kind of final question. If you had an ask... well, semi-final question... if you had an ask of people, you know, what would you ask them to support people in working with and side by side with lots of different diverse talent?

What would you say, what would you ask people?

Swain:

I think there is something about create an environment that is low fear, high trust where you feel it is... I mean, I'm into some jargon here like, you know, psychological safety, where it is okay to express this without feeling judged and without feeling its career limiting. And I do think it's about understanding how those combinations play out.

Bitar:

I think it's been fascinating listening to you. And it's not a space that I've seen a huge amount and I've been listening to lots of other people's stories. So, I'm going to draw us to a close by asking you to finish the sentence: I belong when...

Swain:

The Nirvana would be. I belong when I believe I'm in an environment where there is unconditional love.

Bitar:

What a lovely what a lovely way to close.

Swain:

But can I just go one beyond that? I would just, if you don't mind, I think more specifically, it's when I feel there is a warm and spontaneous smile from someone you meet. It is spontaneous. It's warm. They're pleased to see you. And there's something about that because it's about being smiled at, laughed with, as opposed to laughed at. If because of some of your social faux pas when you were younger, you used to get laughed at. You suddenly feel you belong when people are laughing with you.

Bitar:

Well said Austin, really well said, because there's nothing like feeling a part of something, whatever that something might be. So, thank you very much, Austin, and I look forward to touching base with you soon in a work environment.

Swain:

Thank you, Mona, and thank you for being the inspiration for it. See you now.

Bitar:

Thank you for listening to this episode of Strong When We Belong. We look forward to sharing more stories in the coming weeks.

In the meantime, you can subscribe to this series on Spotify and find it on ey.com.

You can join the conversation on social media too using the hashtag Strong When We Belong.

Tell us…how do you feel and where do you feel when you belong?

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