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Mona Bitar

I’m Mona Bitar, and I’m UK&I Vice Chair at EY and member of the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Council. And I'm absolutely honoured to be hosting this series because I believe that the power of storytelling is so important in driving a more inclusive and open environment for everyone. And today, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Matt Close, who is the Business Group President for Ice cream at Unilever and a member of the Unilever Executive.

I'm going to let Matt introduce himself because I'm sure he'll do it much better than I do. And as I said, today's episode is to focus on diverse abilities and, to really encourage leaders to think critically and be innovative in their approach to this situation. So Matt, over to you, please introduce yourself to everyone.

Matt Close

Thanks Mona and hi. I'm a white male, mid-50s, receding hairline and I'm wearing a blue check shirt and a black V-neck today.

I am the President of Unilever’s Ice cream business and actually the way I introduced myself is the way we always introduce ourselves on any broadcast call to help all our colleagues recognise who we are. I've been working at Unilever for 30 years and leading the Ice cream business for the last 7.

Bitar

Thank you Matt and I'm really excited and you know I was so grateful when you and I had a bit of a chat a few weeks ago and I think I talked to you about my hearing loss, and you said you were doing some things at Unilever and I thought actually given that I was doing this series it would be really interesting to have the conversation and as you will no doubt be aware you know, I was reading the valuable 500 report, of which EY is a member on disability data, and there's some interesting statistics that I'll just kind of put out there.

Globally, over 16% of the world's population experience significant disability. The data on workforce disability is quite hard to obtain and we also know that about 80% of people with different abilities acquire them between the ages of 18 and 64, which actually suggests that there must be a significant proportion of people in the workplace that are affected by this. And we also know that the majority of different abilities are non-visible or non-apparent and therefore you know, it's really in to create an equitable or inclusive workplace for those with different abilities, and so to raise awareness, and certainly I've experienced this myself, we often have to rely on sharing our own experiences or asking people to accommodate different needs, which whilst very helpful in the short-term actually puts the onus on people with different abilities to repeatedly request for their

needs. So, in my cynical moments, of which there aren't many, but in my cynical moments I can sometimes say look beyond, you know, beyond sort of disabled toilets and ramps, what have we actually done, in terms of physical adjustments to the workplace? So let me start by asking you, what

do you think about that?

Close

Yeah. So, I think, the challenge is huge. And I think that one of the biggest challenges actually is to make people aware of the lack of access for that, you know, big population of people. We're also part of the valuable 500 now. I think that, you know, one of the things that I've personally been doing, as I've come into a more senior leadership position, is getting much more insight and information on the challenges that people face. It tends to code with what we're trying to achieve as an ice cream company, you know? And as an ice cream company within the Unilever, we talk about happy people for a happy planet. We've done a lot of work on happiness, and we know that happiness at work in particular is driven by feeling cared for. Being well connected and being valued for your individuality. And one of the things that comes back to consistently, is that if you don't feel cared for,

you're not able to speak up and even share what your disability or different ability might be. So, I think, you know, the stats are stark. I think as a professional community we're only just beginning to realise what an opportunity there is to create real inclusiveness in the workforce. You know well beyond gender inclusiveness where Unilever has made an awful lot of progress. But we now need to be very deliberate about access and inclusive and inclusivity for everyone. And if leaders like myself and my boss Alan Jope who's very passionate about this subject don't overtly lead for a change, it's going to be much slower.

Bitar

And I guess with that challenge and the need to lead that change Matt, I've been reading a little bit around how you approach some of this and I think I've uncovered the language that you use at Unilever of unstereotyping. What does that actually mean in practice? Can you give me some examples of practical things you're doing?

Close

Yeah. So, just to kind of take one step back, we came to unstereotype actually through our marketing program, we realised that we weren't reflecting a progressive modern society in much of our advertising. And actually, when we went deeper, we realised there was a very clear business case for bringing a much more unstereotyped approach to advertising. Unstereotyped ads are proven to be more effective and more meaningful in communication. So having started the ball rolling on saying - look, are we really reflecting the world that we live in, we realised that, you know, there's an act two of unstereotype, which is the act at work. How do we ensure that we're working with unable to create opportunities for diverse people and people with different abilities? I think it shows up in a couple of ways. The first is, you know, helping people feel comfortable just talking about disability and different abilities in the same way that we're getting much more comfortable talking about racial justice and about gender equity. And you know, I don't underestimate that it's difficult to have a conversation if you can't put a name to the issues that you're trying to solve. But that's not enough in itself. The second bit is really being prepared to walk the talk. So, we're doing a couple of things that I think I sort of find interesting but vanilla. And then we're doing a couple of things that I think are genuinely different. You know that what I call interesting, but vanilla is how do we change the workplace. We've got a commitment to be to for all of our facilities to be fully accessible, all of our office facilities to be fully accessible by 2025. Funnily enough I just checked in with our head of global facilities this morning, we improved accessibility by 8% last year across the 70 sites that we monitor and we're now, we've now got three sites that we judge against criteria that we work with partners on to be 100% accessible and it means you know making sure that loop systems are in place making sure that we offer raised desks as standard, raising raisable desks as standard rather than as a special dealing with the economics of the challenge helping people who have sight issues come to work. So, there's a physical manifestation in the office.

But also, what I found really interesting is we've got a big tech team who are very, we call it, we call them a squad, and they're very focused on solving problems. You know whether it's text or voice or other systems. And what's really interesting when you talk to them is they say actually the more they solve problems for people with differing abilities, actually the more they solve problems for all of us. So, you know, you'll be aware of this. But I hadn't really been aware of this idea of the curb effect where when you drop the curb for a wheelchair user, you actually make crossing the road easier for everybody. And what we're finding when we apply, particularly tech solutions are, we're making the office a much more easy and accessible place to work. And of course, we replicate that for people who are working flexibly as well, but that's kind of the office environment. I think the other side of it is really being very deliberate about who you recruit on to work programs so. In Mexico, I just came back from there a week ago. My ice cream team has a program called melting barriers. You know, it's a pun on ice cream, of course. But what they're doing is they're going out and deliberately choosing to recruit people with different abilities into a number of our office teams. And I met people who are working, people, you know, who've been enabled by that program and the positive response you get from those individuals is great, but what's really interesting is the positive response you get from the teammates around them who are just so much more aware of what's going on in the world beyond work because we're putting those programs in place.

Bitar

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Matt. And it's really interesting to hear what you've done on both of those things. So on the office space, certainly we recently post the pandemic, you know, as we were thinking about the future of work designed what we call our living lab, which at the moment is a floor in our main Head Quarters (HQ) here in London and we were invited to trial that space as individuals and I am I went in to do that, and I have to say it was such an interesting experience because it was immediately, the minute I stepped onto the floor, the noise was suppressed, the setting was different. And now I work there all the time when I'm in the office and it's things like soft furnishings, it's plants, some of them are fake. It doesn't really matter whether they're fake or real. It's the absorption around it and when I went to speak on facilities, they have actually done quite a lot of consultation with people of different abilities to try and understand. Now we haven't got it right a 100% because you know you can't always get it right for every aspect and we're learning because this is a pilot. But actually, I think you know to my mind this creating safe spaces for people actually it's not a huge amount of capital investment. It's not a big-ticket item that you know sometimes it's really small things that make a difference and similarly about being really mindful of who you recruit. Again, you know, I don't know if you're aware, but we have our neurodiverse centre of excellence where we look at particularly looking in the space of technology at the moment and we have a completely different recruitment process. We have a different experience of onboarding people, which again is quite interesting. But let's talk a little bit more about hybrid working. Or the future of work maybe I should call it because I don't think I think, all corporations are sort of feeling my way into what the future might look like. I don't think we; we have an answer to that. What would your advice be in terms of practical actions that companies can take to build more inclusion in that environment?

Close

Yeah, I think so you're absolutely right that, you know, the future of the office and a real kind of solid view on hybrid working is I think still a way off. My own experience is that we will want to have people in offices two or three days a week you know we see that the Co-creation and Co- collaboration dramatically improves and the creativity that we can achieve goes up when people are physically together. So, from that perspective, we really focus on making the office a great place and a safe place to come. And I think that it has 2 dimensions Mona. I think the first dimension is, you know, the physical and tech space what you what you describe the, the, you know, the way that noise is controlled, the way that you create an environment for every individual whether you know whether they have a visible or invisible impairment is really important. And you know we have a very well-developed checklist that we've that that we've built for fit outs and retrofits. You know as a side note we're about to rebuild or build a new Unilever campus in Kingston, UK and that will be absolutely state-of-the-art for access, but the other part of it is, the other tool by the way. Ohh great. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm excited. Not the least because I spent quite some of my career in Kingston. The other side of the coin is really making it psychologically safe, you know, one of the challenges that we have amongst many organisations is, you know, are people prepared to self-declare their disability, their different ability or are they concerned that somehow, they'll be stigmatised for that, and we really need a psychologically safe environment where people feel truly valued for themselves as individuals. And be feel, feel absolutely prepared to share their challenges. It's good for us because then we can work with them to create the right environment, but it's also good for the overall employee base because you know we know that we don't get high performance in an un-psychologically safe environment. And I think that that safety assessment is just as important as the physical space and is often one that's a bit over overlooked. Certainly it's, it's a big conversation in our Global Diversity Board by the way, which is chaired by our Chief Executive Officer (CEO). I think the letter I got inviting me to the Global Diversity Board was much sharper in expectations of me than the letter I got for being appointed to the Unilever Executive, by the way. So, I think that shows a sort of commitment from our leaders. And then we've got to be prepared to replicate the capabilities we're offering in the home. You know, if the home environment isn't a safe environment and the work environment is, you can't enable flexible and agile and hybrid working. And you know, I think we learned a lot during the pandemic about equipping people well to do their jobs and the kind of really the kind of return we get from a business case point of view, not, not just that sense of belonging and that sense of engagement that people have because you're actually doing things that are right.

Bitar

Right. There’s lots in there. And let me let me try and kind of build on a couple of things and some follow up questions. So, I think your point about psychological safety is absolutely critical and your point around self-identification is really important because I think as you say what it comes down to at the end of the day if I was to sum it up in one word is trust because when people trust they're more likely to want to do that. And actually, you know what we're finding is that's true on a whole host of dimensions - ability, race, ethnicity all sorts of things, but actually having the data really enables organisations to tailor the experience and whether that's creating the right environment or whether it's, you know, particular management programs for people or whatever it is. So, you know one of the things we've been doing is we've run a campaign recently which we talked about getting to know you and actually, really important in that is saying to people what do you do with the data. They saw very well asking for the data but actually showing the tangible actions and it takes time, but I think you know certainly my experience is you can build that trust relatively quickly. Now on the point of view of Diversity Council with Alan leading it and the sharp letter as you describe it, again, and I might be being a bit provocative, but I'm in and out of boardrooms quite a lot. And it's rare that I, you know, I hear people talking about gender, I hear people talking about race. I don't think I've ever really seen a boardroom discussion on disability. Now, obviously I'm not in all boardrooms, but I ask other colleagues, etc. Is that fair? What are your thoughts on this, you know? Is this a board-level topic and should it be?

Close

Is it yes. Should it be? Yes. Are we talking about it enough? Enough. No. I think that starts with commitments and targets. You know like anything in business if you measure it, you're more likely to deliver it. So, we have a board-level commitment to have 5% of our employee base with different abilities by 2025. It's not far off by the way. We also know how difficult it is to measure, but we start; we have to start somewhere and that's a commitment that was agreed at the board and is really, heavily discussed in the executive during workforce planning. So, we go deeper in our Global Diversity Board. But at the executive, we talk a lot about workforce planning and how we achieve our goals. You know, our goals around diversity. I think what gives us confidence is the fact that having made a strong commitment to gender diversity. 10 to 12 years ago, the journey we've been on has taught us a lot about how you achieve. That goal how you, how you measure, but also how you really mentor and create the right environment for change. So, it's definitely a conversation we're having. It's being actively turned into diversity targets, and I think targets not for the sake of hitting a number, but to really reinforce and remind that our mindset needs to be different when it comes to the workforce.

Bitar

And Matt could you gives us a couple of examples of what those sorts of targets are like just to be helpful to people listening in terms of being pragmatic about what they might do.

Close

Yeah. So, for example in the in the build of our Kingston office, the whole team has a clear target on not just the physical environment they achieved, but the percent of people in that office on day one who arrive with a disability or different ability. So, you know that's a hard baked in target. The whole leadership team understands it and knows that they're committed, is committed to it, but also knows it's a commitment. I think the other act that we've taken on is really we put our entire leadership Cardiff through diversity training. So, you know we've all been 360 assessed. We've all worked on unconscious bias. No, I think my journey to here was really, I had a really stark diversity session you know, and I just sort of, I suppose I woke up and realised that my lived experience was so different from the conversation around diversity that I actually had to go out, get on the front line, spend more time listening to people. And I think, you know, you started at the top of the session with how important storytelling is. You know, I find that that is one of the really key vehicles that we're getting. We're bringing people in, into the boardroom, who are talking about their experiences, good and bad. And even if you're not statistically driven, you cannot help but be moved by some of those human stories. So, putting those human stories in the centre of the access agenda, I think is a real game changer.

Bitar

Yeah, I mean you're so right and I think Matt always role modelling is also quite important in these sorts of scenarios, and I think the stat is right. I think we think there's probably one in five or one in six people in executive or very senior roles who have differing abilities but don't have to declare them. And actually, we're on you know we're on a bit of a mission to get some of our senior leaders who have differing abilities to talk about them more and you may or may not have seen but our leader Julie Teigland and Amir recently went open about her hearing issues which she'd

never done before. And again, the tide of people that respond to that is quite important because it gives them courage, I think so that the storytelling is important, but I think the role modelling is also. But Matt, let me get personal on a couple of things. So, you know, as a leader I get why this is really

important to you, but as Matt, why is this really important to you?

Close

I think, from a personal point of view, you know when you meet people who didn't have access to a job and you've created in your company, a situation where that access has been enabled. In our Indian business, we have 15,000 bicycle ice cream vendors. And about seven years ago collectively, we took a decision to make sure that at least 5% of our vendors came from the disabled community. And you think about having a disability in a country like India. It's often a lot harder for individuals to cope. So, two or three times now I've met people in that situation when I go and visit the country and they talk about their lives, they talk about their, in a way they talk about the contribution they make to my business, but also the contribution that we make to their lives. And I think it makes it, it does make it very personal. You can be in business just for the growth and the return on capital invested and all of that. But actually, you know, I what I realised is I've gone deeper into this role is I just have an opportunity to make a difference in it and it's visceral. You feel if you like, its ego enhancing if not anything else. So, I think you know that just meeting people whose lives have been touched by our programs to create access, makes a big difference. And then frankly, we all have to go home at night and look ourselves in the mirror. And I've never really been in this for the power of the money. So, you have to really feel you can make a difference to our society.

Bitar

That's great. Thank you. Thank you, Matt, for sharing that and you know I feel that sentiment very strongly and one of the reasons with this you know and it's certainly a small, it's only a small lever but in launching this sort of series of strong when we belong, you know we've been running a Strong When We Belong campaign internally in EY for some time, and you know when we think about what being truly inclusive means and I often think about the antonym to belonging and actually it's quite hard to find the answer and actually the best I could land on was distance. So, this book rightly belongs in its place on the shelf and the further you are away, the further than it is from belonging. And a lot of these things abilities or differences are distances and so closing those distances and so we're launching this series externally and talking to all sorts of people, internal, external leaders, lived experience of entry level positions etc. I think is a start in that powerful storytelling, so I wanted to kind of really thank you for being so open with me. But in the spirit of this series, I'd like you to finish the sentence I belong when.

Close

So, Mona. I think my answer is I belong when I feel cared for. I am connected and I'm valued by my colleagues for being me and not for being something or somebody they expect me to be.

Bitar

Lovely, it’s always about bringing our authentic selves to work.

Close

I think it's about seeing beyond the stats and looking at the fact that, you know, we're just, it's humanity and we're just humans and for all of our flaws which try to make a difference.

Bitar

Yep. Matt, I, I've really enjoyed this conversation and I really thank you. And we'll be doing a lot more of these and I may welcome back to you at some point as we talk through these topics. I mean, I'm very conscious that, you know, there's so much intersectionality between all these different aspects. But I do think that if you can unpack them a little bit by focusing on different aspects, you know, I think about myself, my ability. I'm Palestinian. I'm a woman. I'm very privileged to have had a very amazing education and a higher education, and you mix all of these things up together. But I think when you unpack bits of it, it really, really helps. So, I just wanted to thank you and give you the opportunity if there's anything else you wanted to share before we close.

Close

Now, look, I think that I, I really thank you for running this series. I think that the biggest challenge that we have as leaders is to have a mindset which is always on. You know that you can't pick up themes around equity, diversity and inclusion and you can't just pick them up and put them down. So, you know, now, now we've done this, I'll be, you know, a big podcaster. So, I'll be following with great interest in seeing what we can borrow with pride as well. I think the more we help the, particularly the leadership of, you know, business and institutions to realise that it's we who can make a difference, but we have to be intentful, the better. So, it's a great reminder and I hope that you know, I can live up to my, my own expectations of myself.

Bitar

Yeah, thank you, Matt. And actually, I think just what you've spurred on me there. And part of this is actually sometimes we all end up looking in our own sort of fields of play if you like. And actually, this is a topic that collectively as a business community, our voice should be so much stronger together. And it's an area that's very easy to do together. So again, once again Matt, thank you, real pleasure to talk to you this afternoon and I look forward to an ongoing dialogue.

Close

Great. Thanks, Mona.

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