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Mona Bitar

Hello, everyone, and welcome. I’m Mona Bitar, and I’ll introduce myself a little bit more later on. But I just wanted to introduce you to this very first series, first episode of this series of podcasts as part of our DE&I strategy. Part of our DE&I strategy is to be a strong, disruptive voice within EY but also within the marketplace and the world at large.

We do a huge range of activities that support this objective, but what actually brings this to life is a common thread. And the common thread for us at EY is all about building a culture of belonging, which many of you will have heard us talk about loads. We celebrate that culture through our Strong when we belong campaign, because it’s good for our people, it’s good for our business, and this is what ties everything we do together.

So this podcast series is an opportunity, an opportunity for us to tell stories that celebrate our work on DE&I within EY, but beyond, and also to really strengthen people’s sense of belonging. Many of you who know me will know that I’m a huge believer in storytelling. And so this podcast series is about the opportunity for many different people to tell their stories and share what it means for them when they belong. We also want to be a disruptive voice in the market and provide insights, so this series is going to be both internal and external, and we’re going to be talking to a whole host of people.

But today, I’m delighted to be joined by my colleague, Shaun Scantlebury. And Shaun, today, is actually going to turn the tables on me and interview me. So let me tell you a little bit about Shaun, but I’m sure he’ll tell you more about himself. Shaun is a Partner in our People Advisory Services practice. He also is a member of the DE&I council. And Shaun and I have had the pleasure to work on client engagements on multiple times.

But before I hand over to Shaun, maybe I introduce myself a little bit. So currently, I’m one of the two UKI Vice Chairs. I’m a Markets Partner. I spend 90% of my time with clients, working with them. I’ve sat in two service lines, and currently, I’m in the Markets organisation. I was the Managing Partner of our Consumer industry and all my clients largely sit in the consumer and retail sector. I’ll tell you a bit more about my personal stuff as we go through this series. But Shaun, over to you now.

Shaun Scantlebury

Thanks, Mona, and thank you for letting me turn the tables on you today as well. Looking forward to the conversation. And it’s interesting, because you’re right, we have worked together quite a bit in the past, but I won’t forget when you first introduced yourselves when we first started the DE&I council meetings and you talked about the gap between how you might have been perceived as a leader over the course of your career and your lived experience and background.

And for me, it really brought to life the assumptions that we can make about others and why DE&I and, to your point, storytelling, authentic storytelling is really important. So I wondered if we could kick this off, if you’re happy to, to share a little bit about your life experience to help people better understand also your motivation and drive for starting this podcast series.

Bitar

Thanks, Shaun. And I think the introduction I gave at the DE&I council actually was stemmed by someone asking me a question, which was, what matters most, how you see yourself or how others see you? And that question got me thinking for a number of days actually. It kept playing and playing around in my head, because actually, how I see myself and necessarily how people see me is not always the same.

So maybe if I start a little bit about my personal story. So I am the daughter, third child, daughter of Palestinian refugees. My father was on the last cargo ship out of Yafa to the UK. He studied here. He was stateless and paperless for many, many years. When he eventually had children, and quite relatively late on in my childhood, we were granted statehood in Jordan, which was a big deal. For the first time, we actually had passports.

He believed in international education, so he was determined that his children needed an international education to be able to compete on the world stage, because actually, that was the only thing that would guarantee our security. So I was brought up very much as a Palestinian, as a Muslim, and I came to school in the UK.

When I was about 13, I developed a degenerative disease called otosclerosis, which impacts my hearing. It started gently, very gently, although I needed hearing aids probably at the age of 14-15. I passionately, with the passion that only teenagers have, fought that and actually only got my first pair of hearing aids probably when I was about 22, when I realised that I could no longer hear anything and that it was futile fighting that fight around it. And it’s a degenerative disease, so it’s got worse as I’ve got older.

But actually, the way people see me is a bit different. I had the privilege of having a massively higher education, so I have a PhD. And the reason I have a PhD, by the way, was for no love of academics. It was actually the only way I could legally stay in the UK for long enough to be granted an indefinite leave. And the granting of an indefinite leave would mean that I would be able to work and stay and make the UK my home. And I had a wonderful education, but it was never anything I particularly wanted to pursue.

So the minute I got that indefinite leave, I needed a job, because actually, the financial toll was very, very hard. I had various scholarships and things, but I needed to earn money. And I fell into consulting. It wasn’t a choice. A really small boutique. I didn’t even know what consulting was, to be perfectly honest, when I joined, but I took to it. I enjoyed it. And what I really enjoyed was the problem solving, actually. That’s probably the one thing I’ve enjoyed throughout my career. And people, being able to interact with people.

And I worked really, really hard, kept my head down. And one thing I’ve thought about is I was brought up in a bit of a culture of fear, which was don’t ever put your head above the parapet. Fit in. You don’t want anyone to take away your rights. Don’t fight the system, don’t talk religion, don’t talk politics, don’t talk anything, just do your work, do a good job and the rest will follow.

And actually, by and large, that was true. You do good work and the rest follows. We generally live in a society, although there’s much to improve, that actually people do get on in organisations. And I had a wonderful eight years at that first company. I then moved to KPMG, where I had a wonderful nine years and now I’ve been at EY for seven years.

And the way people probably see me is someone who is quite confident. Actually, people often tell me they think I’m an extrovert, but actually, I’m an introvert, which is quite interesting. I take my energy from myself because I spend a lot of time on my own, because I find, with my hearing, too much stimulation can be quite distressing. So I’ve learnt to adapt to that. And I guess that’s my story. Now, maybe I stop there.

Maybe, actually, one other thing. I think we often talk those buzz words a lot around DE&I and we talk about intersectionality. And all of us have multiple identities and we see ourselves as multiple things and you can’t separate them out. But I think it’s interesting sometimes to try and actually focus in on one of those aspects in order to understand better around that. And maybe, in this series, we’ll try and explore…

Scantlebury

Yes.

Bitar

Different people’s aspects as well as my own, to unpack some of this and what it means around it. And the reason why I’m so passionate about the DE&I agenda is, actually, I turned 50 recently. And I don’t know whether that’s a bit of a mid-life crisis or something, but it made me step back and think a little bit. Although it’s probably quite old for mid-life in that I’m not thinking I’m going to live to 100. But it made me think. Why do people have to be quiet? Why can’t people really be their authentic selves at work? Why can’t people explore some of these issues?

And the reason I’m passionate is I think, when we talk about leaving a legacy, I actually think legacy is all about passing it forward. The legacy isn’t what you leave behind for people. It’s actually the path you create for them to take forward. I think the word legacy sometimes is a bit too backward-looking and I think it needs to be much more forward-looking. So I’m determined to make the path easier for people that come now rather than the people who probably came through in our generation. So that’s why I’m passionate about this.

And despite the wonderful progress we’ve made on all aspects of DE&I in the last five-ten years, in many areas, it’s nowhere near enough. It’s nowhere near enough, well, actually, probably on every aspect, whether it’s gender, whether it’s race, whether it’s social mobility, whether it’s disability and the list can go on and on. So I’m absolutely passionate that we start to make a difference, and I think there’s lots and lots of ways we can make a difference, and I’m very proud of the work we do at EY. But I think storytelling is one of the biggest ways, and that’s why I’ve launched this series.

Scantlebury

No, thank you for that. And I think what a great story to get this podcast series kicked off with. And we did talk there about intersectionality, and I think there’s a number of different aspects that your story represents. On this podcast, we’ve decided we’re going to have a bit of a focus on different abilities.

And we’ve recently celebrated International Day for Persons with Disabilities, and so I might just ask you for a few more reflections on your hearing impairment in particular, if I may. But what I wanted to do was just to start us with a few stats to set some context for the point you’ve just made, Mona, and I think that is the distance we still have to travel.

So the first one is that one in five people have different ability and 70% of those are not immediately apparent. But less than 10% of organisations have a targeted, intentional plan to access what is a vast pool of talent and make adaptions for that pool of talent to thrive in their organisation. So that’s the first stat.

The other one is that 80% of people with different abilities acquire them between the ages of 18 and 64. And you talked about your journey, starting as a young teenager. So this is a significant proportion of the workforce, but it’s also a significant proportion of the workforce who may well end up with a different ability as they move through the workplace. So I’m just quite keen to hear from you, Mona, and looking back over your career, interested to see how you think things have changed for you over this time and what you think has driven that change.

Bitar

Yes. And I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And obviously, my hearing has been degenerative. So when I first started my career, it wasn’t anywhere near as bad as it is today. But also, the technology of hearing aids wasn’t as good either as it is today, because we’ve had massive improvements.

So my early challenges, and I’ll try and put this into a few things, but my very early challenges was that sometimes people thought I was rude. They might come and say good morning to you as you’re walking through the lift, from behind, and you get into the lift and the door closes and you never responded back to them because you didn’t hear. And people often, I think, saw me as a bit abrupt or a bit rude, because I don’t hear from behind at all. So a lot of the early challenges was… And I suppose it’s a very hidden disability, at that time when I had relatively better hearing than I am now, because you could cope.

I also learnt how I probably read body language really, really well and I’m very sensitive to space. So it’s quite interesting. You could put a massive alarm when I haven’t got my hearing aids on and I won’t hear it, but if someone walks into the room, I’ll wake up, which was quite interesting, even very silently. But I have a real heightened sense of space around that. So it’s quite interesting.

But then the difficulty came, as I got more senior, is sometimes I felt dumb. Because I’d answer a question in, say, a workshop or something, and I won’t have heard the right question or someone else… Particularly in big group contexts, I’d ask a question that someone might have just asked a few minutes before, because I hadn’t heard it. And they’d say, well, why is she asking a question that someone just asked, kind of thing.

And then, progressively, and I think probably about ten years ago, I became a bit more open about it in the workplace. And I would say to people, I don’t hear very well, and I’d look to a colleague either on my right or my left to help me, say, look, could you repeat that question? Or if I haven’t heard something, can you help me hear? Can you help me, be my ears?

And then probably about five years ago, I became much more demanding of microphones in situations. And there’s an experience. It was through COVID, so not long ago, and I’ll highlight this as an experience of bad behaviour. But there was a meeting, and I requested… It was a meeting of over 15 people. And I think, as soon as it’s over 15 people, I need microphones to be at my best.

And I requested that there would be microphones for everyone, not just the presenters, because otherwise you can’t participate in the discussion. And I got the answer, yes, yes, sure. And then I got a reply back saying, oh, well, it’s in an external venue and the cost of putting the microphones is going to be X. Do you really need them? To which I actually… In a fit of anger, which is never good, I just said, well, do you really need me at the meeting? And I didn’t need to respond like that, but also, you don’t need to be put into that sort of situation either. So the challenge is often having to constantly make your point rather than other people make it for you.

And that’s why the concept of allyship across so many different things is so important, because you begin to feel like the grumpy old bear if you’re being constantly grumpy about it. It begins to sound like a broken record. That doesn’t mean you should stop doing that, by the way, and I make no apology for doing that. But on the other hand, it does make it a bit… It eats at your confidence sometimes. But I’m lucky, I’m a pretty confident person, and that confidence comes from within and the confidence comes from actually a sense of purpose.

And for me, if I feel… Particularly in our world, if I’m doing the right thing for the right reasons, then I have every right to do what I think needs doing. And of course we all make mistakes and we all act inappropriately sometimes, but that’s a moment for reflection and thinking about, how do I do this differently? And along the way, lots of different people have been very supportive. Not everyone. But now there are always people who are very cognisant of my hearing challenges and do everything they can to help make the environment better, so it is a lot better than it used to be.

But it’s still difficult. And some of the difficulty, I think, is I’m not sure what you do about it. So the way I describe it… I was having a conversation with Caroline Casey the other day, who runs The Valuable 500 which we sponsor, and she’s a very inspirational… She has sight ability issues around it. But I was saying to her, it’s the exhaustion sometimes, and it resonated with her, that you concentrate so much that, at the end of the day, with the lip reading, with the hearing, you get really, really tired.

And then there are certain events that, by their nature, are large and there’s background noise or restaurants. And the way I feel, as my hearing progressively gets worse, I feel my world is getting smaller. So I can’t tell you the last time I went to a Christmas party, because there’s no point in me going to a party. My social life now is quite limited to quiet restaurants and small groups of people. So you feel like your world gets smaller.

And actually, as that’s happening now as I get older and the hearing… And the hearing, I took a hit, by the way. I happened to be in Beirut on 4 August, when we had that massive explosion. And I lost about 15 decibels of hearing through the explosion, which I didn’t… So there was a big downward trajectory as a result of that.

And so actually, the difficulty now, I find, is it’s actually sometimes a mental challenge rather than a physical challenge, because it’s the mental challenge of how do you deal with the exhaustion, and it’s the mental challenge of how do you transition to knowing that your world is becoming smaller and some of the things that you just can’t do? It doesn’t mean that the world stops around you, and the world shouldn’t stop around you, but your participation in that world can get a bit smaller. So it’s as much as mental challenge now as a physical challenge in terms of how you adapt to that.

Scantlebury

Yes. Mona, I think something which I picked up in what you said in terms of what’s changed over time is much about you and your confidence to set out what you might need out of a situation in order for you to be at your best. I didn’t pick up a lot of environments becoming more amenable and accessible. Would you say that’s a fair reflection?

Bitar

So on my grumpy days, Shaun, I say when it comes to ability, since the introduction of ramps and disabled toilets, what have we really done on the workplace? And that is largely true for a lot of organisations. Now, we at EY have actually done a few things on some abilities, so if I take the Neuro-Diverse Centre, and I’m very proud of that.

But I’ll focus on something else. So the Living Lab is quite interesting. So obviously, we got our chances to go and experiment and sit with that. And when I did, it was really the most comfortable floor for me, on a personal basis, acoustically. I found it just… The background noise was different, the set-up was different, and I always sit on the third floor now, by the way. Whether it’s my turn or not, I just go and sit there, because the environment is just so much better.

And I actually started talking to the team on the future of work. And I hadn’t realised that they had taken into account quite a lot of abilities as they’re designing the future of work. And I think with the pandemic and post-pandemic hybrid working and the future of work, I think we’re at a real tipping point of designing the workplace of the future to be able to cater for many more abilities.

So for me, something like the Living Lab has been a phenomenal difference. And it’s as simple as the soft furnishings, the fake plants. You don’t realise how much noise they absorb from the background, and therefore how much difference it makes. Whether they’re real or fake doesn’t matter. It’s a soft furnishing.

Scantlebury

Yes.

Bitar

So I think we have an opportunity to do something very special now with the future of work, post pandemic.

Scantlebury

That’s fantastic. Yes, it’s a good example. And for those of you who haven’t had the pleasure of our third floor, it is something which has been designed fairly recently to support, I guess, the future of work, hybrid working.

And I wanted just to quickly go to this hybrid working environment, because certainly when we were in the thick of the pandemic, and mandation of working from home for a lot of us, I do recall becoming more aware of the increased dialogue we were having over screens and what that meant for you with your hearing impairment as well. So I just wanted to just have a few quick reflections from you on how the pandemic has affected, positively or negatively, the world of work for you.

Bitar

Yes. Look, I think it was a big transition for all of us, the going from in the office to at home 100%. What were my learnings? So with reflection now, largely, for me, it’s been a positive experience, because once I got my technology at home set up properly… So I have some pretty powerful speakers, and that really helped. So I can turn my volume up as loud as I need to, which no one else needs to hear. So in a way, that’s really, really positive around that. So in that sense, the environment is okay.

In large groups, where a lot of people weren’t on screen, you don’t have the ability to lipread, which I do rely on quite a lot, and also people’s body language. So in the really big meetings, if you’re trying to participate, it’s a bit harder. But in the smaller groups, I’m actually really comfortable with it. It also balances out that exhaustion point by being in the office two or three days a week, being at home two or three days a week. For me, it really balances it. So I often find, if I’ve done two or three days in a row in the office, I’m like, phew, I can be at home in a quiet environment.

On the other hand, in the office, before the roll-out of the modern meeting rooms, it was quite tricky, because I can’t use headphones because of my hearing aids. I can Bluetooth and stream into my hearing aids, but that in itself creates a certain pressure in your ears because it blocks everything else out. So that in itself is not a very comfortable way. So I won’t go into the office if I’ve got a day of Teams because, well, that feels a bit pointless, although I do use the modern meeting rooms, and they’re fantastic actually around that. So that’s really helped.

So I think for me, the pandemic actually by and large has been positive, because it gives me the flexibility of both being in the office, meeting people, engaging with people, which I enjoy, but also some quiet time at home.

Scantlebury

Yes. And look, I’ve picked up through this conversation, I’m picking up a few things which could be shaped into some recommendations, actually, for organisations thinking about how to drive better belonging and equitable experience of the workplace for their people. So I want to just reflect back some of those and give you an opportunity to add to the list.

So some of the things I’m picking up are around being more inclusive by design. So when we’re thinking about space, thinking about different abilities, different needs when we’re thinking about designing physical spaces of work. Another thing I picked up was flexibility, particularly around the pandemic. Having the flexibility to work in an environment which best suits your needs, then that balance, seemed to be another clear recommendation that organisations could think about how they cater for.

The last one actually was more in terms of what hasn’t been positive in your experience, and that was around education, educating people about difference and about how they can all be better allies, whether that be across any range of diversity, but in this case thinking about ability and how we can… Your microphone story. Why would we put the emphasis on the individual who then needs the support? So I picked up something around allyship as well there. Is there anything that you would add to that list in terms of recommendations, considerations for organisations thinking about this topic?

Bitar

Yes. Look, it’s quite… I think you capture those really well, Shaun. I think one of the things I’d add is also thinking about the hybrid world, the Teams environment. So for example, if you’re on a big Teams call, just actually allowing people to say their name and face, because for me, if I’m hearing, I don’t necessarily know which face and which voice, and connecting them together. So things like that, and actually being more open of whether we have someone in the room. That could go both ways. Some people are comfortable with that. Some people aren’t.

I also think we should learn from the fantastic work we’ve done on the Neuro-Diverse Centre. We’ve opened our first one. We’ve actually captured the needs from people in terms of what works for them and what doesn’t around it. And I think we could extend that to other abilities in terms of… And I think we are doing that, by the way. So I’m really impressed with… We have a really thriving Ability EY network which has seven communities within it. We’ve got sponsorships with The Valuable 500. So there’s talk about do we report on disabilities in the same way as we report on other things.

And also, how can we be a bit more disruptive, internally and externally? Because I think… I was having this conversation with a client of mine who is on the executive of the FTSE 100. And he just hadn’t realised, actually, how difficult it was. And he’s now taken action. And actually, I’m delighted we’ll have him on podcast series soon to talk about his experience as a leader, of how he’s helped create the environment. So I think the more we do around the storytelling, the education, the allyship, the practical environment, the better. And I think, at EY, we’re really well placed to actually accelerate this agenda on a whole host of abilities, not just one or the other.

Scantlebury

Yes. Look, Mona, thank you for sharing your story, sharing your insights. And I, for one, am really looking forward to seeing what else we explore on this podcast series. Look, from my perspective, that’s really highlighted a few things for me.

One is absolutely the power of storytelling. And the reason that the stories are so powerful, I think, is because it’s something where, although we might not be able to directly relate to people, there’s something in everyone’s story, I think, that resonates, and people can take different things from that story. And I think that’s really fantastic.

But I think we’ve also really provided some really clear steers and recommendations for people thinking about this or people not thinking about this, about how they can start thinking about how to make their environments more inclusive and really drive towards a culture and environment of belonging for all. So I wanted to wrap up this section just with asking a simple request of you, and that’s for you to finish a sentence for me. And I’ll have a go as well after you do. And the sentence is, I belong when…

Bitar

So for me, I think I belong when I can be me.

Scantlebury

Thank you, and I’ll have a go. I think mine is I belong when I see people like me thriving, actually.

Bitar

Yes.

Scantlebury

I think that’s the one for me. But look, so thank you very much. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation, Mona. Looking forward to the rest of the podcast series.

Bitar

Thank you, Shaun, and I really appreciate all your support on this agenda, much broader than this. So thank you again. 

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