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Mona Bitar

Hello, everyone. I’m Mona Bitar, EY’s Vice Chair in the UK and Ireland, and a member of the EY UK Diversity, Equity and Inclusiveness Council. You’re listening to Strong When We Belong, a podcast series created and produced by EY in the UK. At EY, we believe that a strong sense of belonging can lead to better collaboration, retention and business performance.

This series is dedicated to sharing uplifting conversations and personal stories about belonging in the context of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. You’ll often hear this shortened and referenced throughout as DE&I. Each episode features a conversation led either by myself or one of the other members of EY’s DE&I Council, including Shaun Scantlebury, Joanne Conway and Fatima Tresh. We really hope that these conversations inspire individuals and organisations to think differently and drive positive action and change.

Shaun Scantlebury

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Strong When We Belong podcast. I’m Shaun Scantlebury, I’m a Partner at EY, a member of our DE&I Council, and the leader of our Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Consultancy practice. We’re here today to talk about LGBTQ+ inclusion, and I’m delighted to be joined by a great colleague, Cara Heaney. Cara, please can you talk to us about your role at EY?

Cara Heaney

Like you, Shaun, I’m also a Partner, sitting on our DE&I Council. In addition, I’m a Partner in our People Advisory Service practice. My day job is basically helping my clients move talent across international borders. Importantly, I'm also the co-partner sponsor of our LGBT+ network, Unity, here, in the UK.

Scantlebury

So, Cara, I'm really intrigued to get your perspectives on how you've seen the corporate environment evolve over your career.

Heaney

That's a really good question, actually. I guess I should start with when my career began. I know you'll think it was a couple of years ago.

Scantlebury

Yes, yesterday, wasn’t it?

Heaney

A hugely successful individual. I joined the workforce in 2000, so I guess, in that time, in those 23 years, I've seen quite a lot of change. So, I guess the environment in 2000, for me, I've always been working in big four style organisations. And so, when I joined the graduate scheme that I joined with another big four back then, the starkest difference for me, as a gay woman in the workplace, is that there were no out partners. There were no out colleagues.

So, I was all alone, wondering if it was okay to be myself in work, and I wasn't even out as an individual. So, actually, that environment was very much different to the one I experience today. But it's been a bit of a journey. It's not been overnight. But now, and certainly here, at EY, I see an environment where, for example, the fabulous Unity team that I sponsor today, we have every wonderful letter of the LGBTQ+ alphabet represented.

We have communities of out staff and colleagues, we have out partners, for our colleagues to look up to, and a very, very different environment. All that being said, we definitely aren't done yet.

Scantlebury

So, the title of this podcast is Strong When We Belong. And I'm intrigued, thinking about that career history, then, what difference has it made to you, seeing the environment evolve, and seeing more of a community and an out community in the workplace? What difference has that made to you in the way you conduct your role?

Heaney

Well, I guess, on my personal journey, the first signal I had in the workplace that it might be okay to come out, as I was, on a personal level, slowly beginning to accept who I was, was an out partner in another firm that I worked for. Even with that, it took a very long time for me to be completely comfortable in an organisation to just come out fully. And by coming out fully, I mean, not just not lying when people ask me, but actively talking to clients and colleagues about my life, and proudly being able to speak about that very normally.

And so, EY was the first firm I really felt that. So, I suppose, kind of firstly, seeing other out partners and colleagues was a big signal to me when I joined back in 2014, that it was okay to be myself here, at EY. And actually, this was the firm, I'm really proud to say, that prompted me to be fully out. And I think it wasn't just the out role models, it was our entire ethos and focus on diversity and inclusion. I’m very pleased that we've added the equity to that now, as well.

Scantlebury

It's great to hear. But it would be remiss of me to not pick up on something else you said, which is there's more to do. There's more to do. Bring that to life for us. And it can be our organisation, and more broadly, societally. What are the sorts of things, in your mind, when you think actually, we're really not done yet?

Heaney

I think there's both the external picture and the internal. So, maybe I'll take those one at a time. So, if I look externally, today, in over 60 countries globally, it is illegal to be gay. So, turn that to the workplace, it's not even part of the conversation, because it's illegal to be who you are. So, number one, as a global firm, clearly, our work’s not done there, given the impact on staff and colleagues in countries, where it's illegal to be themselves.

Secondly, I think we're probably feeling a little bit of a point in history, where we are hitting a bit of a juncture of polarised views, a bit of a push against some LGBT+ inclusion. And I think, as a result of that, we're definitely seeing some increased homophobia and transphobia rhetoric on social media, in the press. And so, externally, that's definitely having an impact on society. Now, I'm based in Edinburgh, it feels like a pretty progressive society, doesn't it?

Great. Here, in the UK, we've got so many rights. The hate crime against LGBT+ individuals has doubled since 2013, 14 in Scotland, and that's not just the number of hate crimes reported, but perpetrated. So, if we look at that external environment, that's the first thing that signals to me that if our staff are not all right outside of work, then our work here is not done.

Then I guess the second thing that is a signal to me is that every journey is in a completely different pace. So, I am still approached regularly by colleagues, who are not yet able to be out in their home life or in work. Now, that could be for very personal reasons. We all have to feel comfortable, there's a self-acceptance, there's maybe family acceptance. There are often some pretty tough issues surrounding maybe conflicts of religious beliefs and sexual identity, or gender identity.

And so, people are still very much struggling with that. So, I guess until the day that there is no longer a need for anyone to come out, I feel like there's a lot more to do to help people be themselves in work.

Scantlebury

Yes. I love the way you've put that last point there, there's no longer a need, because it does suggest that there's almost a huge barrier to be overcome, just to express who you are. And thinking about employee networks, then, you are chair of our network. What role would you say they play in creating that sense of belonging, and also, challenging organisations on progress?

Heaney

So I think the networks are hugely important for a couple of really different reasons. So, the first is having that sense of community. So, somewhere that when you feel you would like to talk to someone who will really understand, talk to someone who's been through your journey and get some help through an experience, you've got that network to go to. So, the social aspect of Unity is really important.

And that was a fantastic thing for me, when I joined EY, it was actually the first LGBT+ network I'd ever been a part of in my career. And I'd been working for 14 years before I joined EY. The second part, I think, is about actually having a group of individuals, who because of their lived experience, are able to work with EY, and agitate, to help drive change, but change that's meaningful for the people that will be impacted.

So, I'm always quite concerned about anything, I'm sure you'll see this in your day job, when policies are determined by people who haven't lived and experienced them without testing things out. And so, what's fantastic, I think, is the relationship we have with the Unity network and the DE&I team here, at EY. Because we're very collaborative, they're very consultative, and having that group and staff network, I think, is so important.

Scantlebury

Yes. I think that's really great to share with listeners, because I think different organisations are in different places, when it comes to the maturity of their networks. And something, which I think you see in more mature organisations, is that you've moved beyond the community aspect to the influence aspect. And when you do become a resource, to test, and refine, and develop policies, I think that is really great. Even beyond that, it's great when you start to see organisations leveraging networks to think about how do you engage with community, with customers, etc.?

So, it's great to bring both of those elements of what our network does to life I think for listeners. I do want to flip back to your own experience a little bit. We've touched on it, in terms of some of the things you've seen out in society with regards to resistance. And I've said on a previous podcast, when we were just getting ready to start the New Year, I saw an article about trends, HR trends for 2023.

And one of them was a trend for organisations to be trying to pursue a DEI strategy in the face of increasing resistance. And that really concerned me, that organisations would feel they're now having to push harder to make progress on DE&I. What's your perspective on that?

Heaney

I think that is right. I think there's a lot in that article, because I'm speaking through an LGBT+ lens just now, but I could be speaking through a number of lenses, I think. I think what we're finding at the moment in the press and social media is, as I said, a really polarised set of views. And so, when some issues become polarised, I think what happens is organisations fear somehow getting in the middle, or picking a side, and they fear the bounce back from that externally.

If I think about something like the Gender Reform Act in Scotland that's currently paused by the UK parliament. If I think about that, and how the press has reacted, and the public commentary on social media, it's been a very, very divisive issue. I've spoken to a number of LGBT+ charities just in my network in Scotland, and they're feeling that as a result of the controversy and the polarised views surrounding something like that Act, that actually, their charitable donations are down.

Which I think is a real example of the way that organisations, because these are company charitable donations, that organisations start to step back and fear taking a side. And actually, I was having this conversation with one of my fabulous Unity colleagues this morning, and we were just saying to each other actually, this isn't the time to step back.

Because when you see some of the behaviours, some of the increased hate crimes, some of the increased hate speech, now is the time absolutely for organisations to take a stand, and not feel that taking a stand against something that's fundamentally wrong is somehow going to upset a client or an external organisation. And I know it's a difficult line to walk, but I think now is not the time for us to let that resistance hold. We need to push through.

Scantlebury

And would you say that, certainly, I'm picking up something in what you’ve said there about trying to maintain a neutral position because I think when you've got polarised views, actually, I have always felt, on DE&I issues, of values, that trying to remain neutral is, frankly, taking a side. What's your perspective on that for organisations?

Heaney

100%. I think there have to be some things within your values, as an organisation, some lines beyond which, you just won't let anyone else cross, and you wouldn't cross. And I think we talk a lot, don't we, about there's no such thing as a silent ally. It's the same thing, silence is violence in some of these issues.

Scantlebury

So, Cara, why did you take on the network sponsor role?

Heaney

I don't even think I thought about it, when it came up. I put my hand up straightaway. I think the reason for that is just because of the positive impact that role models had on my life. Also, because of some of the individuals I'd spoken with privately, who still felt like we needed more vocal and visible role models. And that's definitely why I put my hand up to take it on. I think what I didn't realise is that when I got into the role, I would realise there were a lot of other reasons why.

It's been an absolutely fantastic educational journey for me, so rather than stepping in as network co-sponsor, and feeling like I know everything, it's been a learning journey, hearing from all our different communities. And I've learnt to be an ally within the LGBT+ community, because I'm learning so much about the different aspects of our community. So, I think I definitely did it because I wanted to help drive more inclusion, more role models.

You can't be what you can't see, and inspire some of our fantastic LGBT talent to step up and continue to push their careers. But I definitely think if I was speaking to any partner who was thinking about sponsoring a network in the future, I would say the learning for you, the journey, these incredible network co-chairs and steercos will take you on, will be fantastic.

Scantlebury

I almost don't feel the need to ask this next question, but I will anyway, because I think it's a long game, isn't it, trying to make progress on any of these areas? Where do you get your energy from to keep being at the forefront, to keep pushing the agenda? Where do you get your energy from?

Heaney

Actually, I think it's the other way around. I think something that you're passionate about is the thing that gives you energy. So, I don't want anyone tracking my timesheet here, but when I'm having a tough workday, and maybe things aren't going 100% to plan, I know that if I just take an hour or two out and focus on the network, and put my energy into that, that I will be worth so much more to my clients and my colleagues afterwards. So, actually, it's the energiser, the role’s the energiser.

Scantlebury

That's brilliant. There was one other thing you said around education that I would love for us to touch upon briefly, and that is you talked about the education around the communities within the community. And you find this with other aspects, such as we’re all a combination of things, and intersectionality is another big topic, which maybe we'll talk about on another podcast. But it strikes me, when we talk about something like a race and ethnicity network, people might just see it as one community, where actually, it’s several communities.

I think it’s absolutely the same in what you were pointing to there. So, how about giving a bit of an education around some of the things you've learnt, then, about the communities within the community, just to bring that to life for people.

Heaney

So, one overarching piece I’d lay out is that for the first time, over the last two years, what we've done is quite deliberately within Unity, brought to the fore, and this was certainly not my idea, but the fabulous co-chairs and steercos around me, brought to the fore a community for each of our different LGBT+ alphabet letters, where people could come together under a community lead. So, that's been incredibly exciting. So, having a safe space for those communities to connect together, but also, having communities come and educate the rest of us.

So, if I use just one example, there have been so many, but our trans and non-binary community, one of the leads of that community arranged for some of our senior leaders to participate in an education session with an organisation called Global Butterflies, who are focused on corporate education of leaders, employees, anyone within the business, on trans and non-binary issues and inclusion in a really safe space.

And so, actually, that experience is just one example of some of the learnings, learning actually, that our trans and non-binary family are going through a very difficult time just now. Learning, actually, that we might think we know how to choose our language, we might think we know the impact of the things we're saying, but actually, hearing from trans and non-binary people some of the impacts, the negative impacts, even unwittingly, of misgendering people, as an example, can have.

It's been really, really helpful. So, that is a programme, sparked by one of our communities, that's grown arms and legs. And I think we're just about to extend it out. We’ve extended it through our talent team, and we're about to extend it out into our broader staff networks.

Scantlebury

I think that's fantastic. Something, which I've been a beneficiary of via the Unity network is the reverse mentoring programme.

Heaney

That’s another great example.

Scantlebury

And I did that, because I was picking up on some of the elements you've talked about today, the resistance, the increase in crime stats, and things like this. And I thought well, actually, I want to learn more. What would you say, because you talk about the alphabet and some of the complexities in the community, for those who have almost put this as a no-go zone for fear of it being too complex for them to understand, and fear of getting something wrong, what might a few words of encouragement be for you to them?

Heaney

Well, I think number one, we're all going to get something wrong at some point, right? But you're in a safe space with colleagues, your intent is right, that is what matters. And so, I think everyone appreciates some curiosity, a desire to understand, and from that perspective, if you see that in other people, then that's absolutely fantastic. I think, by the same token, we all have to be really careful that we're not asking for our education of others.

So, I think you have to be mindful of the fact that a lot of times, sharing personal stories, it can take its toll, it can be triggering for people. So, I think where there's that real reciprocal relationship, I want to learn and I want to share, then it's a wonderful way to learn. It's not something to be scared of. Nobody's going to shout you down for getting an acronym or a word wrong, if you're showing that intent and that desire to learn.

And I think that's where the reverse mentoring programme is fantastic, because to your point, you've put some formality around that decision that I want to learn, and actually, I want to share. So, I think that's a fantastic idea for other organisations to be thinking about, if they're not already.

So, Cara, something that we have been doing at the end of each podcast is asking somebody to finish a sentence for us. And that sentence is I belong when… So, would you mind completing that sentence for us today?

Heaney

Sure. I belong, when I don't have to change who I am to fit in or succeed. Where I'm accepted for all that I am, including my quirks and special bits of my personality. That's when I really belong.

Bitar

Thank you for listening to this episode of Strong When We Belong. We look forward to sharing more stories in the coming weeks. In the meantime, you can subscribe to the series on Spotify and find it on EY.com. You can join the conversation on social media too, using the hashtag #strongwhenwebelong. Tell us, how do you feel and where do you feel when you belong?

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