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Kait Borsay

Hello and welcome to Leading into Tomorrow — a podcast series from the EY organization looking at how governments are using technology-driven strategies to help deliver their visions of a better future.

I'm your host Kait Borsay, and each episode we're joined by guests from around the world sharing their knowledge and insight. Our focus for this episode is on how governments can harness cloud technology to deliver more efficient services for citizens. 

Joining me from Rome is Andrea Tonci, EY Europe West Digital and Emerging Technologies Leader and Partner at Ernst & Young S.p.A. Hi, Andrea. 

Andrea Tonci

Hi, Kait.

Borsay

Thanks for being with us. And in Paris, Arnauld Bertrand, EY Global Government and Public Sector Consulting Leader. Hello, Arnauld. 

Arnauld Bertrand

Hello, Kait.

Borsay

Arnauld, let's start with you. You've been working with public agencies and public executives for almost 25 years. How would you describe the value the cloud is bringing to public performance? 

Bertrand

Yeah, well, I do think that cloud is in fact a kind of catalyst that will enable a digital transformation at speed and at scale. Because it does offer government many things. It does offer cost saving through the capacity to free some public resources. It offers the capacity to scale as well. It offers an access to powerful analytic tools and cutting-edge application like SAS application. And last but not least, it does provide an advanced cybersecurity level. So definitely, cloud to me is a kind of accelerator of digital transformation for government.

Borsay

Andrea, let's come to you. You've over 20 years’ experience of strategic IT transformation projects in both the public and private sectors. First, in terms of the benefits, what can we expect the cloud to do and not to do?

Tonci

So, we talk about cloud, and governments are implementing a cloud, let's say services, but for myself as an end user, actually I'm more interested in how governments build the new digital services. I'm interested in how governments streamline processes for me. And so, if they use cloud technology that is good. But to me as an end user, I would rather be focused on how these digital services can help me in my work and my daily life. 

So, of course, cloud can save costs for governments and for businesses. Of course, cloud can be helpful in securing, in ensuring more, let's say, data security, resilience and whatever. But at the end, it is most important to focus on digital services, user friendliness and how we can, let's say, deliver more and more benefits to enterprises and citizens.

Borsay

Arnauld, different countries are at different stages, aren't they, of how they harness the cloud and deliver services? Give us some examples then that you've got of governments’ cloud strategies.

Bertrand

Yeah, it's quite interesting because every country, or most of the countries, especially in the developed world, has developed its own cloud strategy. And they are not the same. If you take the UK, for example, it is the cloud-first strategy which requires public agency to first evaluate the capacity to develop cloud solution and then move to alternative technology, if needed. But if you go to Singapore, it's a little different, but still close. They have developed a kind of G-cloud, which is a government cloud, a private one, but with a kind of hybrid model with a strong cooperation between the private cloud and the public cloud.

And if you take my own country, I will potentially let Andrea say about Italy, but if you take the French, for example. They have put us well, what they call cloud at the center — this is the name of the French strategy with two public clouds on which you will rely when you have to deal with very sensitive data, for example. Even if you will keep some data on premises and system on premises when it's very, very confidential, like on the defense space, for example. But as well, they will open the capacity to move to private clouds when you were dealing with a level of confidentiality that is not too high.

Tonci

We have in Italy, like in France, a national digital strategy. The country is trying to implement a national cloud system, a focus, a goal for all the countries now to retain within the national, let's say, boundaries, the critical data.  

What it is quite important in Italy but also in other countries like Spain, France and the UK as well, it is that, at national level, governments are trying to implement, let's say, a common cloud platform. Like for instance, governments are implementing public payment systems for all the public institutions. We have a public business process management workflow, workflow management for all the public administrations based on cloud.

And the last critical point for all the countries is resilience, because we have had lots of, let's say, examples in different, let's say, fields on how resilience is important. In Italy and other countries in Europe West and EMEA, I would say, governments are trying to build different data centers, national data centers, data hubs, in order not to have a critical, let's say, single point of failure, but to have a combination of public, hybrid and private cloud providers. So this is very, very important to achieve resilience. 

Borsay

Andrea, you've advised top government executives around the world on their policies and strategies, and we're starting to hear some of that knowledge coming through. When data is being shared about really important topics like health or energy, for example, how can central and local government use the cloud to work together?

Tonci

When we have, let's say, countries with a centralized, a very strong central government, you have all the business processes delivered at central level. So you have all data centralized and it is it is easier to build digital services through cloud using those data.

But when you have other countries like, I would say, Italy and Germany or other federate countries where you have the business process delivered through a combination of services from central government or local government, to deliver the end-user service, you need to work together from central local governments. And you have data split and scattered throughout the countries. It is important that you have a national cloud strategy, a national data strategy.

It is important that you have national rules in terms of technical guidelines on how to ensure service portability, data sharing. Because, at the end, you must design and implement a process and a digital service for the end user. And the end user doesn't care whether his own, her own data are within the private sector, local government, central government.

And the only solution to this is that you have clear guidelines for all the countries on how to share data and how to build new processes. 

Borsay

And when it comes to storing all this information, Andrea, are countries simply retaining their critical data in their own cloud centers, or are there new models of storage? 

Tonci

As far as I'm seeing so far, all the countries are trying to retain data within data centers within the country. There are different rules in terms of categorization of data, but of course, when it comes to national infrastructure, critical data, security, all the countries are trying to build their own private, public government data centers. You can have also hybrid data centers or public cloud providers to store noncritical data. 

Borsay

And when we talk about that critical data, has legislation and cloud standards impacted the adaptation of cloud technology? Has the technology had to then move alongside the legislation, or is the legislation following the technology?

Tonci

Difficult to say. That's a constant debate and a strong impact from legislation to cloud, let's say in projects and cloud adoption. Because, of course, data security and data privacy are always, let's say, a key goal of all governments. And there are, you know, lots of different rules in all the countries, even if at the European level, legislation is quite all aligned.

The point is, when you have a central government or a central department that is keen to adopt cloud technology and bring new services, they try to go fast and they try to overcome, you know, any data security and data privacy issue. But sometimes, when there are difficulties, you know, the legislation comes into the debate to say, no, I can't do it because I have, let's say, a kind of no-go or a stop by the legislation.

I would say that legislation is coming after. Today, and in the future, we will have lots of debates on how to use artificial intelligence for public, public government services to citizens. And we will have lots of debates and maybe in the future lots of debates in terms of how to define gun rights on using artificial intelligence. 

Borsay

Yeah, that is a big old debate that's coming just around the corner, isn't it? Arnauld, let's pick up with you and challenges. Is another main challenge still the security of data in the cloud? 

Bertrand

When it comes to challenges, there is probably three main challenges: the first one being the one you just raised together with Andrea, which is data security. And there is a link to this legislation at the moment, because we have to talk.

You cannot talk at the moment of cloud without speaking about the US CLOUD Act, which allows the US government to have access to any data that is hosted in the US-owned private clouds, like Microsoft and some others. There has been an impact on the capacity for government to move to cloud, because they have both to use the powerful access to a lot of innovative applications, to AI, through these private clouds.

But as well they have to deal with security of data, and because of that, they have to deal with the trust of the citizen on clouds to decide which data could go to the private cloud and which data should stay either on premises or on the public cloud, their own they developed themselves. This is a key issue, and the security of data is essential.

One, because governments own a lot of private and sensitive data. And the second one is trust. Because when there is a breach, there is a big risk to lose trust in government, even if they rely on private clouds. So trust and security to me is essential. 

Bertrand

Then there is for me, two other challenges. It is good to speak about cloud. It is good to take advantage of cloud, but we have always to stay very focused on the services delivered to citizens and businesses, and make sure that, through cloud or through other systems, the access to services is simple and very easy to use. 

The third challenge is probably, as we move to digital transformation, especially in the public sector, there is a huge challenge on upskilling for government civil servants, for them to be in a position to fully take advantage of the benefit of digital transformation of cloud. And today, the re-skilling of public servants is not exactly at the right level in most countries. 

Borsay

And that's a really interesting take on some of the other challenges surrounding cloud technology. Andrea, let's pick up on one of those that Arnauld has just mentioned: citizen experience. How is the cloud currently improving citizen experience? And if we were to look ahead over the next few years, how should governments continue to utilize cloud technology to deliver even more efficient services for citizens? 

Tonci

I think governments should focus on two dimensions. The first dimension, as I just made some example before, is about, let's call them, horizontal platforms.

Governments should build horizontal platforms like payment systems, like common general ledgers, common workflow systems, common business process management throughout all the different, let's say, public institutions. Because this will ease, you know, the access to services from all the citizens. And governments should try to build digital services around the processes that flow through the different departments to overcome the silos.

So very, very important to build new horizontal platforms for all the public institutions and businesses. And upon that, vertical ecosystems to deliver more, more and more digital services to the end users. 

Borsay

Let's round off then with one piece of advice from both of you … Andrea?

Tonci

What I see is that sometimes many, many governments start major transformational programs with huge business case, huge investments. They start collecting data, data, whatever.

But what I see is that sometimes we miss the final goal. So we collect data, we start, we embark on huge cloud technology transformation — to do what? And again, let's don't forget the end-user point of view. Let's focus on the user point of view. Let's collect data but let's understand what we want to do with those data. And so, restrict the focus and be quick to deliver. 

Borsay

Arnauld, for you?

Bertrand

As always with innovation, let's try not to be shy, but to be bold and to be innovative. And I think it's very important for government to leverage on cloud, to catch the global digital potential to transform government and to improve public services. And there is a risk if you don't move in the right way, if you don't secure your journey to improve the system, but left some part of the population aside.

So you've got to move to digital transformation. You've got to be bold and innovative when it comes to cloud and to access to all the technology that are offered by cloud, but at the same time, you have got to make sure that you do embark the whole population. And in some case, it is not through digital. In some case, you will have to maintain a physical contact for people that either don't want to go through digital or are not yet able to go through it. 

Borsay

Well, look, thank you both very much for joining us and such a fascinating conversation. Andrea, thank you to you.

Tonci

Thank you. Kait.

Borsay

And Arnauld, thank you to you.

Bertrand

Thank you, Kait.

Borsay

Well. that's it for now, but do join us for more insight into how governments are delivering technology-driven strategies. Also, do subscribe to this series so you won't miss an episode. From me, Kait Borsay, thanks for listening, and goodbye.

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